# Is calling a black person an "Ape" a racist remark? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2013, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386 "2013-05-26T08:28:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/101 "2013-05-29T09:10:49Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > I think the view on blackface is probably correct for most Australians, we as a country just didn’t participate in the blackface debate at all so we can be excused for not knowing that it was so offensive. No, you can’t be excused. You _should_ have known. ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/102 "2013-05-29T09:18:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, you can’t be excused. You _should_ have known. How? Osmosis? The Force? Telepathy? There’s no such thing as common sense or even common understanding when you cross societies, and cultures. The whole “Black face” thing was never a part of Australian culture, it was an American thing. Those guys were as much poking fun at US culture as at the Jackson 5. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/103 "2013-05-29T09:29:48Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > How? > > Osmosis? The Force? Telepathy? Empathy, forethought and common humanity > [@](#): > > There’s no such thing as common sense or even common understanding when you cross societies, and cultures. Bullshit. Some things are always wrong, even if a society doesn’t see it. And humane people in even the worst societies can see that. > [@](#): > > The whole “Black face” thing was never a part of Australian culture, it was an American thing. Those guys were as much poking fun at US culture as at the Jackson 5. Poking fun _by using racial caricatures_. Stop trying to claim innocence. The only way that would be innocent would be if Australians were _completely unaware_ of the existence of African-Americans and thought blackface was just making fun of excessively tanned American people or maybe American coalminers. But context shows that’s not the case. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/104 "2013-05-29T09:52:49Z")
This whole “you can’t blame Australians for innocently taking an American cultural item on” is a non-starter - there’s a _responsibility_ attached to doing that sort of thing - part of which is ascertaining whether the thing you’re appropriating doesn’t, just _maybe_, have a negative connotation or a misplaced context. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/105 "2013-05-29T10:03:20Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > The whole “Black face” thing was never a part of Australian culture, it was an American thing. Those guys were as much poking fun at US culture as at the Jackson 5. But why would you wear blackface to poke fun at American culture? I mean, we Americans, we’ve been off that form of entertainment for kind of a while. Or are you saying the aim was to try to confront the truth of America’s past racial misdeeds? Because that seems kind if heavy for Australian comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/106 "2013-05-29T10:13:25Z")
Following the game, high profile Collingwood President Eddie McGuire apologised to the player on behalf of the club, saying "“I apologised to him on behalf of the Collingwood Football Club and football people in general. We have a zero tolerance at the Collingwood Football Club on this,” he said. “We are not going to have this rubbish. Some young girl has gone and said something stupid. Bad luck. We are not making excuses people made excuses for too long about this.” McGuire is now himself caught up in a racism controversy, having this morning suggested on radio that Goodes could promote the new King Kong musical. Even if one takes the view that a 13 year old girl in modern Australia didn’t realise the term “ape” was racist, there seems absolutely no excuse for Mcguire’s utterly bizarre remarks today. ---
**Author:** ![Krav\_Manga](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krav_manga/32/3153_2.png) [@Krav\_Manga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krav_Manga)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/107 "2013-05-29T10:15:39Z")
[Link](http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/mcguire-apologises-for-goodes-king-kong-gaffe-20130529-2na8h.html) to a story regarding the latest gaffe. ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/108 "2013-05-29T10:15:51Z")
> [@colander](#): > > But why would you wear blackface to poke fun at American culture? I mean, we Americans, we’ve been off that form of entertainment for kind of a while. Or are you saying the aim was to try to confront the truth of America’s past racial misdeeds? Because that seems kind if heavy for Australian comedy. The context was a TV show that had been popular in the 80’s but had been cancelled for years. It had a couple of 1 off specials years after being cancelled and the guys who did that black face routine in the talent competition had done the same thing 20 years earlier when they were uni students. It was a reprise of an 80’s act and no one twigged that the attempted humour in it didn’t travel well 20 years into the future. When Harry Connick jr spat the dummy about it, most Australians were WTF is he on about as Australian culture is obviously not the same as the USA in a whole number of ways. They guys who did the skit were mostly of non anglo background and all in professional employment, yet they didn’t see the issue neither did the station programmers until all hell broke loose afterward. We live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/109 "2013-05-29T10:41:48Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > The context was a TV show that had been popular in the 80’s but had been cancelled for years. It had a couple of 1 off specials years after being cancelled and the guys who did that black face routine in the talent competition had done the same thing 20 years earlier when they were uni students. It was a reprise of an 80’s act and no one twigged that the attempted humour in it didn’t travel well 20 years into the future. We didn’t do much blackface in the 1980s either, so I’m still not getting how it pokes any fun at American culture unless the thing about American culture that you think is funny is that we once gave a prestigious musical award to a musical group consisting of five actual black people. Is that the joke or?? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/110 "2013-05-29T11:07:44Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > When Harry Connick jr spat the dummy about it, most Australians were WTF is he on about as Australian culture is obviously not the same as the USA in a whole number of ways. > > . …if the show didn’t want to hear the opinion of an American judge then getting an American judge on the show wasn’t a smart idea. He didn’t “spit the dummy.” He told him how he felt. I’m not American, I’m not Australian, and [I cringed in horror as I watched this video again.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styzgtxH8tI) To hear one of the judges call the act “cute” and to hear the audience cheering depicts a certain amount of cluelessness. “We spent so much time not making black people look like buffoons.” Thats not spitting the dummy. Anyone asking an American to judge a blackface performance actually deserves much worse than he gave them. You guys seriously underestimate how hurtful this kind of thing is. The Daily Show’s [John Oliver described Australia as “Comfortably Racist.”](http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/australia-is-most-comfortably-racist-says-daily-show-presenter-20130416-2hxg5.html) When things like the blackface performance are openly defended, its hard not to think that his choice of titles is accurate. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/111 "2013-05-29T11:28:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if the show didn’t want to hear the opinion of an American judge then getting an American judge on the show wasn’t a smart idea. He didn’t “spit the dummy.” He told him how he felt. I’m not American, I’m not Australian, and [I cringed in horror as I watched this video again.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=styzgtxH8tI) To hear one of the judges call the act “cute” and to hear the audience cheering depicts a certain amount of cluelessness. I’m cringing re-watching it again. Don’t Australians have any rhythym?!! What kind of people do a polka clap to “Can You Feel It?” Outrage! And I thought Harry was very respectful considering what he was dealing with. For the innocently ignorant, “blackface” is not the same thing as coloring one’s face to simulate dark skin. “Blackface” is a caricature. Notice that in that clip above, the actors don’t have the normal brown coloring of the actual Jackson 5, but rather a tar blackness that only exists in asphalt and black holes. And the afro wigs are exaggerations of black people hair. Wild and woolly–not at all what the J5 sported. Pale-skinned Michael Jackson especially. White actors have done the “blackened up” schtick without resorting to blackface. Gene Wilder, Dan Ackroyd, and Robert Downy Jr. have all accomplished this successfully to varying degrees. **MrDibble** threw a shout-out to _Bamboolzed_ earlier. I recommend everyone watch it (I hate the ending, but apart from that I thought it was a pretty good movie). There’s a montage of blackface imagery right before the credit roll that nicely illustrates why the hell black folk have a problem with this kind of humor. ---
**Author:** ![stui\_magpie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stui_magpie/32/11010_2.png) [@stui\_magpie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stui_magpie)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/112 "2013-05-29T11:28:56Z")
^ So you dislike the term spat the dummy in this instance. If I used the term cracked the shits or just got angry (which I tend to use interchangeably) would it make a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/113 "2013-05-29T11:38:56Z")
“Spat the dummy?” I just watched the video. Connick was extremely careful and polite and expressed his love for the show and for Australia. That was classy. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/114 "2013-05-29T11:40:08Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > ^ > > So you dislike the term spat the dummy in this instance. If I used the term cracked the shits or just got angry (which I tend to use interchangeably) would it make a difference? …nope. You are implying he over-reacted. He didn’t: he was remarkably restrained. If I had been the judge you would have seen someone spitting the dummy. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/115 "2013-05-29T11:41:06Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > ^ > > So you dislike the term spat the dummy in this instance. If I used the term cracked the shits or just got angry (which I tend to use interchangeably) would it make a difference? No, he calmly, politely, and respectfully expressed his discomfort at what he considered an offensive display, while at the same time expressing understanding that it was meant to be in fun. This is exactly how people in a civilized society _should_ object to things. It doesn’t qualify for a mocking metaphor at all. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/116 "2013-05-29T11:44:26Z")
> [@stui\_magpie](#): > > They guys who did the skit were mostly of non anglo background and all in professional employment, yet they didn’t see the issue neither did the station programmers until all hell broke loose afterward. > > We live and learn. I can see the guys who performed the act not really getting it before hand, blackface just doesn’t have the same history in Australia as it does in the US performance wise and certainly not the kind of cultural awareness. But the TV producers damn well should have. [The Black and White Minstrel Show](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show) was on TV here when I was a kid and it was eventually taken of the air for the same sort of reasons. Hell, I cringed when I saw the act and think HC Jr did exactly the right thing, but then, I’ve spent a lot more time on places like the SDMB or reading about the US civil right movement than the average Aussie. About the same time there was another incident about a [KFC ad](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-01-07/kfc-pulls-cricket-ad-amid-racism-claims/1201378) which really was a media beat-up and a good example of something with racist connotations in the US being regarded completely differently elsewhere. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You guys seriously underestimate how hurtful this kind of thing is. The Daily Show’s [John Oliver described Australia as “Comfortably Racist.”](http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/australia-is-most-comfortably-racist-says-daily-show-presenter-20130416-2hxg5.html) When things like the blackface performance are openly defended, its hard not to think that his choice of titles is accurate. If I go to one of the states on [this list](http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/most-racists-states-us.asp), chat to a few people in areas acknowledged by the rest of the country as a bunch of racist assholes, and then extend that to the entire United States, would that be regarded as a fair assessment? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/117 "2013-05-29T12:07:23Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > I can see the guys who performed the act not really getting it before hand, blackface just doesn’t have the same history in Australia as it does in the US performance wise and certainly not the kind of cultural awareness. > > But the TV producers damn well should have. [The Black and White Minstrel Show](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show) was on TV here when I was a kid and it was eventually taken of the air for the same sort of reasons. > > Hell, I cringed when I saw the act and think HC Jr did exactly the right thing, but then, I’ve spent a lot more time on places like the SDMB or reading about the US civil right movement than the average Aussie. > > About the same time there was another incident about a [KFC ad](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-01-07/kfc-pulls-cricket-ad-amid-racism-claims/1201378) which really was a media beat-up and a good example of something with racist connotations in the US being regarded completely differently elsewhere. …I agree about the KFC advert. There was nothing in that at all. > [@](#): > > If I go to one of the states on [this list](http://www.the-top-tens.com/lists/most-racists-states-us.asp), chat to a few people in areas acknowledged by the rest of the country as a bunch of racist assholes, and then extend that to the entire United States, would that be regarded as a fair assessment? I wouldn’t have a clue. I’m a Samoan/Maori living in NZ, not an American. I know Australia quite well. I don’t know much about the States. John Oliver is a comedian, not a scientist, I wouldn’t be expecting an indepth analysis of race relations out of him. He was making a funny. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/118 "2013-05-29T17:48:52Z")
Back to the OP, I am fond of pointing out to my friends that we are all, in fact, apes. I’ve never said this to anyone of any ethnic background (including caucasoid) who wasn’t immediately offended by it. It’s funny to me. We _are_ animals, guys, get over it. There are five species of Great Ape, and Humans are one of them. [Ape - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape) > [@](#): > > [Hominidae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae) consists of [orangutans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangutan), [gorillas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorilla), [chimpanzees](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee), [bonobos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo) and [humans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human).[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#cite_note-MSW3-1)[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#cite_note-Goodman2-2) Alternatively, the hominidae family are collectively described as the great apes.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#cite_note-Dixson1981p13-3)[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#cite_note-DawkinsUse1-4)[[5]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#cite_note-5)[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape#cite_note-Benton2005p371-6) There are two extant species in the orangutan genus (_Pongo_), two species in the gorilla genus, and a single extant species _Homo sapiens_ in the human genus (_Homo_). Chimpanzees and bonobos are closely related to each other and they represent the two species in the genus _Pan_. If some little girl called me an ape I would laugh at her and remind he that she’s one too. But we’re not discussing a scientific conference here, are we? It was a soccer game, and the audience at large was hurling insults, as has become disgustingly common. In fact, let’s face it, we are relieved any time we get through a large match with nothing more substantial hurled at a player. We have accepted, and allowed, and even encouraged this behavior, and it’s out of hand and beginning to make live viewing innapproiate for children. It reminds me of my childhood when one would never have thought to bring a child or even a grown woman to a boxing or wrestling event. But this girl meant to insult, as everyone around her was insulting. And she chose a word which had significant racial undertones, and which crossed the line into serious personal insult for the player. He deserves a serious apology, and she deserves better role models. And if this incident is the catalyst for a review of what constitutes acceptable behavior at a soccer match, then Hoorah! If boxing could do it, then football can too. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/119 "2013-05-29T20:30:21Z")
> [@Krav\_Manga](#): > > [Link](http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/mcguire-apologises-for-goodes-king-kong-gaffe-20130529-2na8h.html) to a story regarding the latest gaffe. Yep, I was prepared to give the kid the benefit of the doubt re the ‘ape’ comment. Thirteen-year olds of any footy persuasion are not known for engaging the brain before yelling shit at a game (dare I say Collingwood fans might be the worst of all??). 😃 But Eddie’s gaffe yesterday was just inexcusable. His justification of '_tiredness’_ was a piss-poor attempt to mitigate his culpability, and frankly an even **bigger** insult to not just Goodes but the Great Institution of Football in this country. McGuire should be sacked…if not for the latent racism in his comments, then surely for his complete and utter fuckwittery. ---
**Author:** ![Battle\_Pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Battle\_Pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Battle_Pope)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386/120 "2013-05-29T22:24:48Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > McGuire should be sacked…if not for the latent racism in his comments, then surely for his complete and utter fuckwittery. If not this then eventually something else would catch up with him. I barely watch TV and don’t live in Melbourne and I feel like I can’t get away from the idiot. Can’t imagine what it’s like living in Vic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-a-black-person-an-ape-a-racist-remark/659386.md?page=7)