# Is calling someone a "concern troll" really calling someone a "troll"? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 27, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324 "2011-08-27T22:21:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/1 "2011-08-27T22:21:09Z")
I don’t see it. I’ve seen the term “concern troll” on the SDMB many times in the decade I’ve been around, and never have I seen anyone interpret it as the term “troll”. A liberal concern troll starts a thread titled, “What can Bush do to rescue his Episcopalian support?” and a conservative concern troll starts a thread titled, “How can Clinton rescue his marriage after Lewinsky?” They’re both being sly, both have intents beyond the obvious title, and obviously they are not trolls. But they are “concern” trolls; the slyness and the hidden intent make that clear. Even so, they’re not a troll, they’re not starting a thread just to wreak havoc, they’re starting a thread for a perfectly valid discussion. Is there a better term for this type of poster, and perhaps more relevant, is there a better term for this type of poster that would pass muster outside the Pit? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/2 "2011-08-27T22:36:03Z")
They are being disingenuous. Whether or not it’s technically “trolling” it’s just lame behavior that drags down the level of discussion. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/3 "2011-08-27T22:43:17Z")
Actually, I think the “concern troll” is much more partisan and obviously so. Much more along the lines of “I am an independant voter that hasn’t made up my mind, but I’m worrried that Democrats will start to question Obama if Irene is a big disaster and it appears like he isn’t doing anything? I mean I tend to vote Republican, but Bush’s response to Katrina really soured me and I had to consider staying home or voting Democratic instead. I think this should really be a valid concern for the Democratic base right now.” The intent, especially if you have noticed a posting trend by a poster for a long time, is to cast doubt, get people to pile on, and hopefully sway some people to note vote or switch from voting for the Democrat. I think it’s dishonest, probably violates the don’t be a jerk philosophy in obvious cases, and difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt most of the time. Might be nice to have a SDMB term that can be thrown out without junior modding that may help in blatant cases. Not sure though in practice that a codeword for “Don’t be a jerk sympathy troll” can avoid junior modding, especially when it’s not \*that \*blatant. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/4 "2011-08-28T03:56:37Z")
This is an interesting point and I can see the distinction you’re making. My thought right now is that once you start using the word “troll,” it’s pretty insulting and is likely to detract from the discussion. Some commentary on a poster’s motives is allowed - we can’t demand that people be credulous and it’s fair to take a poster’s history into account when responding to him - but there are limits to that. It’s alright to wonder if a poster’s motives are what he says they are; saying he’s trolling crosses the line. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/5 "2011-08-28T15:30:36Z")
I’ve been around roughly as long as Frank and I don’t think I have noticed the term “concern troll”. Possibly because we tend to view different threads or forums. I understand what he is saying and I think I understand the view point. The problem I see is that the poster tries to create a trainwreck by hiding behind generic terms. Good luck to the Mods in sorting that one out. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/6 "2011-08-28T17:49:55Z")
I’m exerting self-control by not posting a concern-Tina joke. :o ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/7 "2011-08-28T19:16:01Z")
Good for you. You’ll probably be able to squeeze some good karma for yourself outta that. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/8 "2011-08-28T19:41:27Z")
“Squeezing out karma?” Is that what the kids are calling it now? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2011, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/9 "2011-08-28T20:24:12Z")
Has “concern troll” become definite yet? Because I’m nominating the term “[push troll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll)”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/10 "2011-08-29T00:21:14Z")
I’m concerned that by using the word, “Troll”, **Frank** undermines his point and makes his case less persuasive. But I’m on his side! Really! * * * I typically try to avoid personal characterizations outside of the pit. Furthermore, “Troll” and “Jerk” have special meanings on this board, so they should be used with care. But FTR, here are some links on concern trolling: Urban Dictionary: In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with “concerns”. The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you’re an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.[sup]1[/sup] Example: In the 2006 election, an aide to Congressman Charlie Bass (R-NH) was caught concern trolling the opposition on local blogs. While pretending to support Bass’s opponent, Paul Hodes, the aide argued that Hodes couldn’t win because Bass was an unbeatable candidate. Hodes won the election. Rational Wiki: A concern troll visits sites of an opposing ideology and offers advice on how they could “improve” things. The term’s popularity originated on Daily Kos[1][2][3] (though the term likely predates their usage). The concern troll’s message is: “I have some concerns about your methods. If you did these things to make your message less effective, it would be more effective.” > **[Concern troll](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll)** > > A concern troll is someone who disingenuously visits sites of an opposing ideology to disrupt conversation by offering unwanted advice on how to solve problems which do not really exist. Topics of "concern" usually involve tactical use of rhetoric,... Krugman, 2009: > [@](#): > > August 12, 2009, 11:28 am > > Concern trolls > > A brief thought, linking two people: Robert Samuelson and Greg Mankiw. > > Both enjoy lecturing us on the need to take strong action — Samuelson demanding that we do something about rising health care spending, Mankiw that we join the “Pigou club” by taxing oil consumption. > > But both can reliably be counted on to reject any actual proposal along these lines that either (a) has any chance whatsoever of becoming legislation or (b) is proposed by Democrats. > > Just saying. [http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/concern-trolls/](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/12/concern-trolls/) [sup]1[/sup] While here at the SDMB, sock puppets are those who have more than 1 account, which is something different. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/11 "2011-08-29T00:34:35Z")
I do understand the concept of concern trolling. I’ve seen it and I agree it’s a dubious debate tactic. But it’s possible to have a legitimate discussion even the OP has started the thread for disingenuous reasons, so I’d rather people discuss the topic and perhaps take note of the OP’s behavior without directly insulting him and without turning the thread into an attack on the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/12 "2011-08-29T01:30:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Has “concern troll” become definite yet? Because I’m nominating the term “[push troll](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll)”. Concern Troll is an established term, [going back at least to 2008](http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/markos-moulitas/24407-dems-ignore-concern-trolls). (Though the writer of that article presents it as a well-established term, so it no doubt goes back much further.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/13 "2011-08-29T03:29:02Z")
I think concern troll is of recent vintage. The first reference to it in google books is in a June 2008 Vanity Fair article about the Daily Kos: > [@](#): > > A new leaner, meaner cut of Democrat, Markos spurned the classic liberal temptation to make nice and salve the bruised feelings of the angered and offended, something conservative opponents such as Ann Coulter and Limbaugh never bothered doing. The gibe used to be that a liberal was somebody so fair-minded that he wouldn’t even take his own side in an argument, **and in the blog world the term for such namby-pambies is “concern troll.”** A concern troll is someone perennially anxious about going too far and doing more harm than good by alienating moderates. They are the “I approve of your goals but not your methods” killjoys who were the bane of activist Saul Alinsky’s existence. Apart from the late Steve Gilliard, a blogger whose untimely death left an unfillable void in the warrior class, few have set a healthier example of consuming concern trolls for breakfast than Markos. So the site that bears his name is not for the demure. [When Democrats Go Post-al | Vanity Fair](http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/06/wolcott200806) The Vanity Fair author presents an altered definition: concern trolling implies disingenuous presentation: the politeness advocacy is considered a sham. I suspect the meaning was more amorphous at the time, which makes me suspect the phrase indeed grew out of the Daily Kos, somewhere near 2008. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/14 "2011-08-29T16:08:19Z")
I actually was worried about this when I referred to a certain action as concern trolling in an ATMB thread. Granted, I didn’t actually call someone a concern troll, but just said that certain words were often used by concern trolls, but I would not have been surprised to have at least gotten a mod note. I’d have no problem not being able to use the term out of the pit. There are other words to convey the concept without sounding so much like an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-calling-someone-a-concern-troll-really-calling-someone-a-troll/594324/15 "2011-08-29T19:28:23Z")
I guess I’m not devious enough, because I fail to see any subterfuge or slyness in either of Frank’s examples, or China Guy’s. I mean, unless the guy saying “I’m an independent voter” is really a Republican or, heaven forbid, Lyndon LaRouche supporter.