# Is Canada a free country or is it not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506 "2013-02-06T18:12:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/41 "2013-02-06T23:24:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What bullshit kind of “‘freedom’ rankings” would count **that** as an **improvement?!** One that doesn’t have an Orwellian definition of freedom that says having the state take more of your private property makes you more free. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/42 "2013-02-06T23:27:03Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > One that doesn’t have an Orwellian definition of freedom that says having the state take more of your private property makes you more free. More specifically, please; cite and link. ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/43 "2013-02-07T00:11:12Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > One that doesn’t have an Orwellian definition of freedom that says having the state take more of your private property makes you more free. The progressiveness of a tax system doesn’t really say how much of your “private property” the state is taking though - only the overall tax rate does. If anything, a more progressive tax system is taking more tax from a smaller number of people (the rich), thus resulting in “more freedom” for the majority of people who are on the lower end of the scale. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/44 "2013-02-07T00:30:24Z")
Canada is a very free country in general. However, I do have to say that we moved away from Canada in part because they took away our freedom as Anglophones to fully participate in public life. Of course, that was just in Quebec. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/45 "2013-02-07T02:19:52Z")
And that was actually the Quebec government implementing Bill 101 which was an evolution of Bill 22, not the Canadian government. I’m not sure your characterization is completely fair but this isn’t really the thread for it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/46 "2013-02-07T07:26:48Z")
Well, Quebec’s language laws are dickish and petty, I admit. Like all of Missouri’s laws, and Arkansas’s laws, and Kasnsas’s laws, and Florida’s laws… Frankly, there are any number of U.S. states that are way more dickish and petty than Quebec could ever manage. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/47 "2013-02-07T13:26:15Z")
And that’s the thing – on this real Earth there is no such thing as the Ideal Free Country whose Rule of Law scores 100% on every person’s version of how things should be. Canada, like the USA, is a pretty damn free country for most intents and purposes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/48 "2013-02-07T14:15:35Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > The progressiveness of a tax system doesn’t really say how much of your “private property” the state is taking though - only the overall tax rate does. If anything, a more progressive tax system is taking more tax from a smaller number of people (the rich), thus resulting in “more freedom” for the majority of people who are on the lower end of the scale. Freedom to mooch? That’s an interesting use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/49 "2013-02-07T14:30:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Freedom to mooch? That’s an interesting use of the word. But suppose they’re not mooching. Suppose in fact the great majority of adults are productive - which is in fact the case, by the way. Technically what matters in terms of the “freedom” you have in terms of taxation is a lot more than how much you pay; it’s how much the payments affect your ability to live as you please in a free, pluralistic society. Speaking as a Canadian who makes above the median income, I really don’t think the tax rates have a huge impact on my quality of life. If we went back to the way it used to be, though, I might change my tune. When Jose Reyes finally gets settled in Toronto this year, the government will probably take about $8 million off his $18 million paycheck. Well, his accountants will save him a lot, so let’s say $6 million. Does it really make a lot of difference to Mr. Reyes if he makes $1 million a month or $1.5 million? Nah, not really. And the difference between Ontario’s effective tax rate and the tax rate he’d pay in Florida is less still. But if the Canadian government were to take one third of the income of a person making $30,000 a year (they don’t, it’s more like $4000) that would have a devastating effect on their quality of life. The same tax rate impinges Mr. Reyes’s freedom in no significant way, but horribly affects Mr. Workinguy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/50 "2013-02-07T14:47:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But if the Canadian government were to take one third of the income of a person making $30,000 a year (they don’t, it’s more like $4000) that would have a devastating effect on their quality of life. The same tax rate impinges Mr. Reyes’s freedom in no significant way, but horribly affects Mr. Workinguy. Of course, sales tax **always** falls harder on Mr. Workinguy, and I understand its pretty high in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/51 "2013-02-07T14:58:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > But suppose they’re not mooching. Suppose in fact the great majority of adults are productive - which is in fact the case, by the way. > > Technically what matters in terms of the “freedom” you have in terms of taxation is a lot more than how much you pay; it’s how much the payments affect your ability to live as you please in a free, pluralistic society. Speaking as a Canadian who makes above the median income, I really don’t think the tax rates have a huge impact on my quality of life. If we went back to the way it used to be, though, I might change my tune. > > When Jose Reyes finally gets settled in Toronto this year, the government will probably take about $8 million off his $18 million paycheck. Well, his accountants will save him a lot, so let’s say $6 million. Does it really make a lot of difference to Mr. Reyes if he makes $1 million a month or $1.5 million? Nah, not really. And the difference between Ontario’s effective tax rate and the tax rate he’d pay in Florida is less still. > > But if the Canadian government were to take one third of the income of a person making $30,000 a year (they don’t, it’s more like $4000) that would have a devastating effect on their quality of life. The same tax rate impinges Mr. Reyes’s freedom in no significant way, but horribly affects Mr. Workinguy. I guess if they live “off the grid” and don’t depend on any government services, including defense of the country. Which, of course, is impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/52 "2013-02-07T14:59:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, sales tax **always** falls harder on Mr. Workinguy, and I understand its pretty high in Canada. Indeed they are, per [this summary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxes_in_Canada#Sales_taxes), every province is between 12 and 14%, except Saskatchewan at 10% and the sounding-better-and-better Alberta at 5%. No U.S. state is greater than 7.5% (California), and 21 are lower than 5%. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/53 "2013-02-07T15:02:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course, sales tax **always** falls harder on Mr. Workinguy, and I understand its pretty high in Canada. Somewhat true. Both the federal and provincial governments can impose a sales tax though some have a combined sales tax called the HST (Harmonized Sales Tax). The HST credit however is rebated quarterly and returns some or all taxes for lower income citizens. The basic calculation can be found here -\> [http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/rc4210/rc4210-e.html#P179\_13557](http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/rc4210/rc4210-e.html#P179_13557) For example a single parent with 2 kids making 30,000 a year would receive $534 dollars over the course of 1 year. Increase the income to $36,000 and the rebate drops to $291. If you take the HST as ~10% the rebate accounts for taxes paid on ~$5000 dollars worth of goods. For reference, median income for a single parent in Ontario in 2012 was $38,000 ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/54 "2013-02-07T15:11:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Indeed they are, per [this summary](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxes_in_Canada#Sales_taxes), every province is between 12 and 14%, except Saskatchewan at 10% and the sounding-better-and-better Alberta at 5%. > > No U.S. state is greater than 7.5% (California), and 21 are lower than 5%. Alberta doesn’t have a provincial sales tax so purchases there only have to include the federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) which is currently 5%. So to expand on that, Ontario use to have its own Provincial Sales tax of 8% which was applied to a certain basket of goods. Those goods would also have the GST applied giving a combined Federal/Provincial rate of 13%. The sales tax rates always include a federal component. For those with more time than good sense - [the income tax rates in Canada for 2013](http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html). ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/55 "2013-02-07T15:18:22Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Alberta doesn’t have a provincial sales tax so purchases there only have to include the federal Goods and Services Tax (GST) which is currently 5%. > > So to expand on that, Ontario use to have its own Provincial Sales tax of 8% which was applied to a certain basket of goods. Those goods would also have the GST applied giving a combined Federal/Provincial rate of 13%. The sales tax rates always include a federal component. > > For those with more time than good sense - [the income tax rates in Canada for 2013](http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html). I see, I was using the combined national + provincial figures. The U.S. doesn’t have a national sales tax, so the rates are comparable. I’ll have to read up on the sales-tax rebate program. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/56 "2013-02-07T15:38:54Z")
It’s kind of odd to be comparing the US and Canadia to determine if either is a free country. Pretty damn easy to compare to other countries and see that both offer a great deal of freedom. And from this thread I see that Canada also splits authority between national and state (province) government. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/57 "2013-02-07T16:05:50Z")
As a minor note, Canada’s had gay marriage for almost a decade now, and no abortion laws for more than twice that, and we haven’t slippery-sloped into moral anarchy, as many American right-wing talking heads warn the U.S. will under the same conditions. That’s right - nobody is marrying horses _or_ hunting toddlers for sport in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/58 "2013-02-07T16:16:10Z")
Given the blasted wasteland we live, in it’s not a sport if you have to do it to survive. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/59 "2013-02-07T17:33:06Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > No U.S. state is greater than 7.5% (California), and 21 are lower than 5%. Local sales tax rates can run quite a bit higher, depending on how many add-ons there are for city or county, transportation districts, libraries, Coors Field, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/60 "2013-02-07T17:38:00Z")
Municipalities are not empowered to raise sales taxes in Canada. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506.md?page=4)