# Is Canada a free country or is it not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506 "2013-02-06T18:12:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/61 "2013-02-07T18:15:20Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Local sales tax rates can run quite a bit higher, depending on how many add-ons there are for city or county, transportation districts, libraries, Coors Field, and so on. That is true. > [@Grey](#): > > Municipalities are not empowered to raise sales taxes in Canada. Interesting. Direct comparison of tax burden at the nation level seems to be difficult, then. ---
**Author:** ![FrankJBN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f0a364/32.png) [@FrankJBN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrankJBN)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/62 "2013-02-07T18:21:05Z")
Ffar less freedom of speech in Canada ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/63 "2013-02-07T18:27:35Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > Ffar less freedom of speech in Canada Other than hate speech what are the restrictions? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/64 "2013-02-07T18:49:47Z")
> [@FrankJBN](#): > > Ffar less freedom of speech in Canada We’ve done this a number of times, but to make you feel included care to back that up with a rational analysis? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/65 "2013-02-07T19:11:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess if they live “off the grid” and don’t depend on any government services, including defense of the country. Which, of course, is impossible. Most people are productive even if you count their draw from common services like the military. Countries do not run wholly on the efforts of a tiny minority. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/66 "2013-02-07T19:17:01Z")
It has socialized medicine, therefore it is an oppressive dystopian hellhole. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/67 "2013-02-07T22:08:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And from this thread I see that Canada also splits authority between national and state (province) government. And, for the 10th Amendment folks following along, Canada’s provinces have far more robust constitutional protection for their areas of legislative sovereignty than is the case for the States in the US. Canada is a much more decentralised federation than is the US. The big difference is that the federal Parliament’s commerce power is generally limited to inter-provincial trade (strictly defined) and international trade. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/68 "2013-02-07T22:23:25Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Interesting. Direct comparison of tax burden at the nation level seems to be difficult, then. Here’s a web-page which attempts to do so, but only for the federal tax systems: [Comparison of Canadian and US federal tax rates for 2011 | The Dragon Well](http://slumbuddy.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/comparison-of-canadian-and-us-federal-tax-rates-for-2011/). I don’t have the knowledge of economics/tax to judge whether he does a fair comparison, but he makes two interesting points: first, judging from his graphs, he concludes that the two tax systems are roughly comparable, with slightly lower rates under the Canadian federal tax system. Second, he notes that one of the major expenditures of the Canadian federal government is the universal health care system, paid for out of general tax revenues. Americans do not use their taxes for that purpose. Instead, they pay their health care premiums themselves. By way of a thought experiment, he produces a separate analysis, showing what the combined US taxes and health care premiums are, to compare what Canadians and Americans get for their federal taxes, since Canadians pay for their health care collectively, through their federal taxes. By that measure (and again, I don not have the technical skill to assess the merits of his analysis) Canadians come out really ahead, since we get to keep more of our income and get health care. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/69 "2013-02-07T22:37:24Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Have you ever heard Newfies talk to each other? Frequently, having married into a Newfoundland family. I’ve got to say, the accent doesn’t sound all that strange to me, maybe because I come from an Irish immigrant family myself. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/70 "2013-02-07T23:08:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > When I was in Canada, the strippers wouldn’t take tips. They actually turned them down! This is due to the difficulty of tucking Loonies and Toonies into a thong. 🙂 > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That’s right - nobody is marrying horses _or_ hunting toddlers for sport in Canada. So… you’re not a free country? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/71 "2013-02-07T23:20:18Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Here’s a web-page which attempts to do so, but only for the federal tax systems: [Comparison of Canadian and US federal tax rates for 2011 | The Dragon Well](http://slumbuddy.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/comparison-of-canadian-and-us-federal-tax-rates-for-2011/). Appreciated, but by not factoring in state/provincial or local taxes, he avoids much of what makes the comparison difficult in the first place. > [@Northern Piper](#): > > By way of a thought experiment, he produces a separate analysis, showing what the combined US taxes and health care premiums are, to compare what Canadians and Americans get for their federal taxes, since Canadians pay for their health care collectively, through their federal taxes. By that measure (and again, > I don not have the technical skill to assess the merits of his analysis) Canadians come out really ahead, since we get to keep more of our income and get health care. I imagine that much of the difference is a result of the level of military spending: $711 billion for the U.S., $24.7 billion for Canada ([2011 numbers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_spending#SIPRI_Yearbook_2012_-_World.27s_top_15_military_spenders)). $711 billion buys a lot of health care. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/72 "2013-02-08T00:18:45Z")
Take a look at the 2 OECD links here: [Canada](http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/country-statistical-profile-canada_20752288-table-can) [US](http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/economics/country-statistical-profile-united-states_20752288-table-usa) Note 2 pieces - Taxes as % of GDP and Worker Taxes as % of Labour Cost. In both cases Canada is significantly higher than the US. It’s pretty obvious that the tax burden in Canada is higher. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/73 "2013-02-08T05:00:54Z")
Contrary the Northern Piper’s implication, the U.S. in fact taxes and spends a huge amount of money on providing health care - far more than it does on national defense, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/74 "2013-02-08T05:54:51Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > And from this thread I see that Canada also splits authority between national and state (province) government. The separation of powers between Parliament and the provinces is expressly stated at ss. 91-95 of the Constitution. This is a lot differerent from the Tenth Amendment, which states that all powers not stated as federal are reserved to the states or to the people. There’s a lot of wiggle room there. Still, we have had our arguments about what is a federal responsibility and what is a provincial responsibility. Such questions get sorted out, but I think our express separation of powers has made the “sorting out” easier than in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/75 "2013-02-08T12:25:29Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Contrary the Northern Piper’s implication, the U.S. in fact taxes and spends a huge amount of money on providing health care - far more than it does on national defense, in fact. According to [this](http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258), Medicare, Medicaid, and the Children’s Health Insurance Program amounted to $769 billion in 2011, 7% more than what was spent on national defense (which this source has as $718 billion). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/76 "2013-02-08T12:40:53Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Contrary the Northern Piper’s implication, the U.S. in fact taxes and spends a huge amount of money on providing health care - far more than it does on national defense, in fact. Wasn’t trying to suggest they didn’t; but even with all that money being spent, Americans who don’t come within the terms of those federal programs have to pay their own health care premiums, or get them paid through work. That’s what that site is trying to capture - what do Canadians get for their tax bucks that Americans don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/77 "2013-02-08T12:43:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Appreciated, but by not factoring in state/provincial or local taxes, he avoids much of what makes the comparison difficult in the first place. > > I imagine that much of the difference is a result of the level of military spending: $711 billion for the U.S., $24.7 billion for Canada ([2011 numbers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_spending#SIPRI_Yearbook_2012_-_World.27s_top_15_military_spenders)). $711 billion buys a lot of health care. The old economic conundrum: guns or butter. Canadians have chosen to spend more on butter - in this case, health care. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/78 "2013-02-08T13:34:11Z")
> [@](#): > > what do Canadians get for their tax bucks that Americans don’t. The knowledge that a sudden accident or illness will not cause them to go bankrupt, lose their home, retirement account, or child’s college fund? Sorry, I’m counting that as a freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/79 "2013-02-08T13:40:58Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > We’ve done this a number of times, but to make you feel included care to back that up with a rational analysis? The main areas where Canada’s freedom of speech are curtailed: - “Hate Speech” laws and Human Rights Commissions - Language laws in Quebec. - “Canadian Content” regulations The most odious of these are the hate speech laws, because they are poorly defined and left to human rights commissions to determine. These commissions do not follow due process and often don’t even have lawyers or judges associated with them. They can make capricous demands and rake people’s reputations through the mud with very little recourse. It’s a bit like the ‘speech codes’ on college campuses, except applied to the whole country. That said, on my list of what makes a country free or not they rate very low on the scale, simply because their impact is so limited. It’s like the Patriot Act in the U.S. - definitely a blow to freedom, but its impact is far more limited than many other regulations that aren’t as polarizing and receive far less attention. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506/80 "2013-02-08T13:48:52Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > It has socialized medicine, therefore it is an oppressive dystopian hellhole. It’s not that simple. The true state of Canadian health care is always distorted in debates because the left likes to paint our system as an example of ‘good’ socialized health care, while the right tends to demonize it as being a socialist disaster. The truth is that in terms of %GDP, Canada’s government actually spends less on health care than does the U.S. government (8% vs 8.3% in 2010). With Obamacare, the U.S. is about to spend significantly more. What people don’t seem to realize is that between Medicare, Medicaid, Veteran’s benefits and other health care programs, the U.S. system is already quite socialized. And Canada’s system is controlled by the provinces, not the federal government. The Canada Health act is only something like 4 pages long, compared to 2200 for Obamacare. That’s because it doesn’t get into the specifics of how the program must be implemented - that’s left to the provinces. The feds just set the broad guidelines and provide some funding. As a result, provinces can vary in determining which procedures will be covered, which will be privatized, etc. There’s plenty of private medical care in Canada. Dentistry is almost completely private, and we pay for our own prescription drugs. Most people have health care plans through their employers to partially cover dentistry and prescription drugs and Orthotics and that sort of stuff. So it really isn’t “socialized medicine in Canada vs free market medicine in the U.S.”. It’s more like two socialized systems that vary in how and where they choose to provide government services. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-canada-a-free-country-or-is-it-not/649506.md?page=5)