Is carrying an exposed gun to everyday shopping & social events OK manners wise?

[Bricker]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

My fear is that someone who engages in open carry is looking for trouble, and while this may be ignorant, I’ve yet to see the compelling facts that dispel my ignorance.

Beyond the lack of crimes committed by people engaging in open carry? What facts might sway you?

To be clear: are you saying that the number of crimes committed by people engaging in permitted open carry is vanishingly small? If so, mind if I move the goalposts a bit and ask about the number committed by people who carry openly, regardless of the legality of their carrying a firearm? After all, if I’m observing a stranger, I don’t know whether they just got their permit, or they just got their parole.

As a reminder, here in Virginia, open carry requires no permit.

So the only way someone who is openly carrying a firearm here in Virginia is doing so illegally is if they are not legally permitted to possess a firearm at all: under 21, convicted felon, and the like.

There’s not a single criminal incident in the past seven years in Virginia involving an open-carry handgun used illegally by a civilian. (I am not counting law enforcement officer shootings later determined to be unjustified or criminal, nor am I counting armed security guards - we have accepted people who wear guns for their jobs and are discussing people who choose to wear guns, yes?)

So - not one in seven years. And that limit is because I got tired of looking.

[Stealth_Potato]

My answer: No, there’s nothing inherently rude or antisocial about carrying a firearm openly during day-to-day activities, depending on the context and the intent.

Now, if you’re only doing it to prove what a badass you are, then yeah, it’s stupid and rude and you’re a dumbass. Ditto carrying to a kid’s birthday party, unless the other families there are also gun owners or enthusiasts and are specifically okay with it. (Maybe a shooting event is part of the party? :D)

But there are plenty of people (myself and some of my friends included) who will sometimes carry openly just as a matter of personal comfort. If I’m heading to the range on a warm day, for example, I don’t bother with a jacket. Since I usually wear slacks and a collared shirt, I can’t just cover it with a light untucked shirt, which would look tacky anyway. Often, I’ll stop at the grocery store, or my bank, or a nearby Starbucks on my way back. This is in Seattle and Bellevue, where, to affirm Pork Rind’s response to Johnny L.A., open carry is perfectly legal, no license required.

I’ve never seen any indication that people are scared or intimidated - to the contrary, I’ve had many people come up to me and ask about it. Some just commenting on what a nice gun it is (Kimber Custom II, blued, with rosewood grips), others asking if it’s really legal to carry like that. I’m always happy to explain the law to the latter group, and they usually leave with a smile and a word of thanks, though I have had a couple people tell me they thought open carry was a bad idea.

In large part, I think the response I get is due to the fact that I am in no way a scary-looking dude, and I usually dress nicely and act politely. I’m a nice guy, in other words, who occasionally carries a gun without taking the trouble to conceal it.
A few people in this thread have said that they would shun anybody they saw carrying openly. I understand that that reaction is a response to fear, but I think that’s an unfortunate prejudice to have - you shouldn’t be afraid of someone just because they have a gun. After all, why do you trust cops? If you aren’t fearful around police officers, why would you fear an ordinary citizen carrying a firearm, so long as they were simply going about their business in a normal manner? On the other hand, if a person’s behavior is off-putting or hostile, you should be worried about them whether or not they’re visibly armed. After all, the criminals pretty much universally choose to hide their pieces until they’re about to use them.

The vast majority of people I interact with on the occasions when I’m carrying openly notice my ready smile and my polite greetings long before they notice my gun. If you would be frightened of me just because I don’t feel the need to hide the fact that I’m armed, then I’m sorry - I truly am, and I would love an opportunity to show your impression to be mistaken. But I’m not going to change my behavior simply because of your irrational fear and your prejudice.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

It’s not a response to fear. I’m not afraid of guns. I just don’t trust people who tote them around for no reason. I know it makes some people feel good to think that everybody’s afraid of them. That’s why they do it. But I assure you, you’re not striking fear into my heart. I just want you to stay the hell away from my kids. If someone comes near my kids with a gun and no uniform, I am perfectly fine with taking that gun away from them and beating their ass with it.

[msmith537]

@Chimera

My job was to carry a gun and money. No part of that was “didn’t have the guts” and you’re stepping out of line and out of reason to attempt to make it so.

Second of all, it IS about the guns, in my personal experience.

The people I spoke of stated clearly that they didn’t like guns and didn’t like seeing someone carrying one, even when it was my job to do so and I was in uniform. Personally, I don’t give a flying fuck if they don’t like it. It was my job. Walking up to me and making a point of going on about it is fucking stupid. Did they honestly expect me to say “You know, you’re right. I don’t need to carry a gun while I walk down the street with $250,000 in cash! People won’t try anything stupid just because I’m not armed!”

It’s different if it is related to your job. I don’t bat an eye when I see a policeman or National Guardsman with a Heckler Koch or an M4 standing in the Port Authority. Because they are a trained professional acting in a manner consistant with their job. Same goes for a security guard or a courier.

I don’t have a problem with armed civillians who are out hunting or at a target range.

Maybe it’s because I always lived in a state where open carry was illegal, but it is a bit offputing for someone to be walking around with a visible firearm. If everyone had one on their hip all the time maybe it would be different.

First of all, I always have to question the judgement of someone who feels a need to be armed with a deadly weapon under normal circumstances. I realize it is their “right” any all, but it’s also my right to bring a sack of potatoes with me everywhere I go. It doesn’t make it sensible.

The other thing is that firearms are dangerous weapons and accidents happen. Even to people who carry them every day as part of their profession. In most circumstances and in most places you are at much greater risk of accidently injuring yourself or someone else with the weapon than being protected by it.

@Diogenes the Cynic

Suspicion of what? There’s no law against asking you questions.

This statement strikes me as hopelessly naive or willfully obtuse. Someone walking up an engaging an armed courier or security guard in conversation while the guard is handling large amounts of cash IS suspicious. It’s suspicious for ANYONE to have a total stranger persistantly berate them while they are going about their business. You would be perfectly well within your rights to tell a cop “excuse me, this individual is harassing me and making me feel uncomfortible”.

[Czarcasm]

Moving thread from IMHO to Great Debates.

[Der_Trihs]

@Bricker

Perhaps they view it as an analogy to a same-sex kiss in public. It makes people uncomfortable, yes. But is it bad manners?

Oh, but they’re different, I hear you say. No one can get hurt from a same-sex kiss; people can get hurt from being shot by guns.

And that IS an important difference. If you are carrying a gun openly like that, it’s a threat. Kissing isn’t.

@Bricker

So what this distaste amounts to is an irrational fear – similar to the irrational fear that viewers of same-sex public displays of affection feel. In each case, people are exercising their legal rights, and the objection comes from an irrational fear or prejudice.

After a lifetime of listening to gun nuts glory in violence as a solution to problems and treat guns like toys, or magic wands that kill only bad people, it’s not irrational at all. Even if they don’t use the gun, that doesn’t mean they won’t push me around or even just act obnoxious, relying on the open threat of their gun to keep me from retaliating. Carrying a gun openly like that for non-professional/situational reasons is the act of a bully, who can be expected to act like one.

Having “KILL” tattooed to your forehead is as far as I know legal. But it’s still threatening, and still denotes you as someone I want nothing to do with. That’s a lot closer to openly carrying a gun than kissing is.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bricker

Beyond the lack of crimes committed by people engaging in open carry? What facts might sway you?

Well, first off, all I’ve gotten so far is a summary report from someone who’s studied it. I trust you not to make up facts, of course, but I’m not sure that you’ll interpret facts in the same way that I would. So some specifics would be helpful.

Second, if I’m understanding the rest of your post, there hasn’t been a single crime in Virginia in the last seven years committed by someone wearing a gun openly who wasn’t required to wear that gun as part of their job. (I know the last clause is so far unnecessary; bear with me). For this statistic to be meaningful, we need to have some idea of how often people in Virginia wear guns openly when they’re not required to wear that gun as part of their job.

If that number is also zero, then the statistic is meaningless. Heck, I bet that there have been zero cases in Virginia of crimes committed by people waving red-hot pokers above their heads in shopping malls and screaming about Satan’s Minions–but if I saw a stranger doing that, would my fear of them be irrational?

A story of a couple who wear firearms openly when it’s not part of their job has made the national news. That makes me suspect it’s not a common practice.

In other words, I need rates, not absolute numbers, before I’m convinced that a fear of such a person is contraindicated.

Daniel

[Chimera]

@Diogenes the Cynic

If someone comes near my kids with a gun and no uniform, I am perfectly fine with taking that gun away from them and beating their ass with it.

This not being the Pit, I can’t go into how incredibly insane and ill advised this is or my opinion of you for stating it.

But if you survived such a move, you’d no doubt be charged with multiple felonies.

[pkbites]

Coming from a law enforcement perspective, I have no problem with Open Carry. And I prefer it myself. It’s easier to carry a larger pistol if you don’t have to hide it. Especially in warmer weather.

Here in Wisconsin open carry is all civillians have, as there is no CCW except on private property (and that’s only because of a State Supreme Court ruling.The same ruling confirmed that open carry is lawful). OC is not a common occurrance though, and the public and some law enforcement officials are ignorant to it’s legality.

I’ve open carried in populated areas of South dakota, Montana, Arizona, Virginia (open carry is actually required in restaurants in Virginia) Vermont, New Hampshire, New Mexico, and Alaska. I appreciated the fact that it was completely accepted and I had no problems doing so. I just recently got back from Louisville, Kentucky. I open carried everywhere with no hassles or funny stares. I guess once people are used to it it’s as it should be: NO BIG DEAL!!

I don’t have a problem with open carry, and I don’t think most OC’ers are trying to be rude or intimidate anyone. It’s just a prefered mode of carry. Those are opinions, though, which won’t be changed by any debate.

[Bricker]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

Well, first off, all I’ve gotten so far is a summary report from someone who’s studied it. I trust you not to make up facts, of course, but I’m not sure that you’ll interpret facts in the same way that I would. So some specifics would be helpful.

Second, if I’m understanding the rest of your post, there hasn’t been a single crime in Virginia in the last seven years committed by someone wearing a gun openly who wasn’t required to wear that gun as part of their job. (I know the last clause is so far unnecessary; bear with me). For this statistic to be meaningful, we need to have some idea of how often people in Virginia wear guns openly when they’re not required to wear that gun as part of their job.

If that number is also zero, then the statistic is meaningless. Heck, I bet that there have been zero cases in Virginia of crimes committed by people waving red-hot pokers above their heads in shopping malls and screaming about Satan’s Minions–but if I saw a stranger doing that, would my fear of them be irrational?

A story of a couple who wear firearms openly when it’s not part of their job has made the national news. That makes me suspect it’s not a common practice.

In other words, I need rates, not absolute numbers, before I’m convinced that a fear of such a person is contraindicated.

Daniel

That’s certainly an understandable approach, but since open-carry requires no permit or other official sanction, there’s really no way of answering the question How many people in Virginia open-carry?

Perhaps a useful data point would be the number of concealed-carry permits issued in Virginia. Now, this is not precisely on-point, but it’s the only data I can think of a way to provide. Concealed carry isn’t identical to open carry, but it at least reflects people who have some desire to carry a firearm about their person.

As of April 2008, the Virginia State Police database held 152,267 active concealed-carry resident permits.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Why is it appropriate to ever bring a firearm into any environment where it would be inappropriate to discharge one?

Walking around with a gun on your hip like you’re some kind of cowboy is just arrested and childish behavior, and is intended to be intimidating. It serves no other purpose. It’s a pathetic and grossly misguided way to try to attract attention. People who do that aren’t impressing anyone with their manliness, they’re just displaying a lack of social awareness and broadcasting a creepy level of antisocial hostility.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Bricker

That’s certainly an understandable approach, but since open-carry requires no permit or other official sanction, there’s really no way of answering the question How many people in Virginia open-carry?

Perhaps a useful data point would be the number of concealed-carry permits issued in Virginia. Now, this is not precisely on-point, but it’s the only data I can think of a way to provide. Concealed carry isn’t identical to open carry, but it at least reflects people who have some desire to carry a firearm about their person.

My point is that people who carry for personal protection overwhelmingly seem to conceal-carry, since I never see a nonuniformed person with a full holster. This makes me think that folks who carry for protection aren’t especially interested in making a statement with their gun. That makes me wonder why someone would choose to open-carry: what are they communicating with this choice? Are their intentions relevantly different from the intentions of the concealed-carriers, to the extent that I should worry?

This is the question which I can’t answer, and which makes me think that a caution around open-carriers is rational, and which makes the comparison to SSK inapt.

Daniel

[Bricker]

@pkbites

… Virginia (open carry is actually required in restaurants in Virginia) …

Just to provide a bit of background there, a person with a concealed-carry permit may not carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club that has a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption. In an odd quirk of the law, it doesn’t prohibit open-carry, just concealed carry. So even a concealed-carry permit holder must open-carry if she wants to sit down at Outback and have a bloomin’ onion.

[Bricker]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Why is it appropriate to ever bring a firearm into any environment where it would be inappropriate to discharge one?

Walking around with a gun on your hip like you’re some kind of cowboy is just arrested and childish behavior, and is intended to be intimidating. It serves no other purpose. It’s a pathetic and grossly misguided way to try to attract attention. People who do that aren’t impressing anyone with their manliness, they’re just displaying a lack of social awareness and broadcasting a creepy level of antisocial hostility.

I can give you an example. I had a handgun stolen from the trunk of my car as I was returning from a day at the range and stopped to have a bite to eat. Subsequent to that event, I’ve chosen to wear my gun on my way to and from.

If I then stop to get gas or a bite to eat along the way, I assure you my intention isn’t to intimidate anyone. It’s to get gas (or food) and keep my firearm secure.

[Bricker]

@Left Hand of Dorkness

My point is that people who carry for personal protection overwhelmingly seem to conceal-carry, since I never see a nonuniformed person with a full holster. This makes me think that folks who carry for protection aren’t especially interested in making a statement with their gun. That makes me wonder why someone would choose to open-carry: what are they communicating with this choice? Are their intentions relevantly different from the intentions of the concealed-carriers, to the extent that I should worry?

This is the question which I can’t answer, and which makes me think that a caution around open-carriers is rational, and which makes the comparison to SSK inapt.

Daniel

So let me ask you this – if you were, say, shopping, and you noticed someone reaching for something on the top shelf and briefly exposing a holster that was heretofore concealed – would you be more, or less, apprehensive than if you saw someone simply wearing their firearm openly?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bricker

I can give you an example. I had a handgun stolen from the trunk of my car as I was returning from a day at the range and stopped to have a bite to eat. Subsequent to that event, I’ve chosen to wear my gun on my way to and from.

If I then stop to get gas or a bite to eat along the way, I assure you my intention isn’t to intimidate anyone. It’s to get gas (or food) and keep my firearm secure.

I don’t think that’s a good enough reason. If you think the chances are really that high that you will get your trunk popped again, then just don’t stop. Go home first, then go out to eat. You won’t starve.

[Mr.Moto]

@Diogenes the Cynic

Why is it appropriate to ever bring a firearm into any environment where it would be inappropriate to discharge one?

Walking around with a gun on your hip like you’re some kind of cowboy is just arrested and childish behavior, and is intended to be intimidating. It serves no other purpose. It’s a pathetic and grossly misguided way to try to attract attention. People who do that aren’t impressing anyone with their manliness, they’re just displaying a lack of social awareness and broadcasting a creepy level of antisocial hostility.

It’s predictable as rain - in these threads you reject arguments and go right for insulting the manhood of those who choose to carry firearms - including the women who do so, which makes your argument less even less rational.

For the record, I open carry when I go to the range - it is far more convenient to do so. As for other modes of carry, I’m only going to say I’m fully on board with concealed carry as a concept.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Bricker

So let me ask you this – if you were, say, shopping, and you noticed someone reaching for something on the top shelf and briefly exposing a holster that was heretofore concealed – would you be more, or less, apprehensive than if you saw someone simply wearing their firearm openly?

I would be less apprehensive. I still wouldn’t think it was appropriate, but I find open display more aggressive and immediately worriesome than CC.

If you were in a Burger King with your kids, and you saw somebody walk in the door carrying an AK-47, would you be at all apprehensive?

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Incidentally, I wonder what would happen to any Arab or Middle Eastern looking dudes who went walking around a public square armed to the teeth.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Mr. Moto

It’s predictable as rain - in these threads you reject arguments and go right for insulting the manhood of those who choose to carry firearms - including the women who do so, which makes your argument less even less rational.

For the record, I open carry when I go to the range - it is far more convenient to do so. As for other modes of carry, I’m only going to say I’m fully on board with concealed carry as a concept.

I wouldn’t do so if the gun fetishists didn’t always feel compelled to accuse people who don’t feel the need to carry guns of being “fearful.” All I’m doing is pointing out what an illogical and childish accusation that is.