# Is cheating in Vegas using ESP illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198 "2007-01-16T16:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/61 "2007-01-18T14:19:22Z")
[QUOTE=drillrod] I disagree with those that believe that you would end up banned after winning merely $50 or $100K. [/QUOTE] You are correct. I should have stated that it’s how you win that may get you banned. A security guy talked about how they analyze the tapes of big winners to look for cheating. They understand that some guys get lucky. In fact, given enough customers, it’s statistically predictable how much moolah the casino will lose to “luck” over a year. Casinos are all about statistics. But if a guy walks straight into a casino, puts down $1000 on a bet, wins big, and then immediately leaves, it will sure set off some alarm bells in management. So, consistent winners will definitely get scrutinized. If they win often enough to mess with the casinos profit margin, it’s likely that they’ll be banned. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/62 "2007-01-18T14:49:10Z")
[QUOTE=mamboman] Forgive the slight hijack - but just say I did win $500K and head back to Topeka - how does the casino pay me my money? Do they write a cheque? Do a bank transfer? [/quote] I can only speak to poker winnings, but those you can take in the form of cash, check, chips or funds transfer. > [@mamboman](#): > > If they welsh on paying you, what recourse do you have? You can go to the Gaming Commission for starters. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/63 "2007-01-18T14:50:21Z")
[QUOTE=Hypno-Toad] But if a guy walks straight into a casino, puts down $1000 on a bet, wins big, and then immediately leaves, it will sure set off some alarm bells in management. [/QUOTE] Has someone been watching “Gilda”? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/64 "2007-01-18T14:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Has someone been watching “Gilda”? [/QUOTE] Never Heard of it. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/65 "2007-01-18T15:11:38Z")
You’re joking. Never heard of [Gilda](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilda)? If you’re a film noir fan you must go rent it now. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/66 "2007-01-18T15:53:02Z")
Has anybody analyzed the long term records of LV casinos, to see if psychics are actually in existence? Suppose a casino sees an anomalous winnings report-and traces it to one man-would that be proof of ESP? or do real psychics just win enough to fly under the radar? Suppose “psycho-kinesis” (the ability to move stuff by mind control) actually exists: the roulette wheels of las Vegas would be a logical place to look. Anyway, how do the nevada Courts deal with supernatural events? Are there special laws out there to deal with this? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/67 "2007-01-18T16:59:31Z")
Given that Vegas casinos make the mathematically expected return over a large number of trials it would seem that if there really are psychics who win money there are antipsychics who lose an exactly equal amount of money. Or maybe the psychic covers his tracks by making another sucker lose every time he wins. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/68 "2007-01-18T17:16:06Z")
If I were a casino, I would welcome the use of ESP. I’m sure it would enhance my bottom line, as I would have more customers and they would all be subject to the laws of chance, which would be in my favor. Many of the examples given in this thread like roulette wheel analysis and card counting are not ESP in the slightest, but the application of physics and probability theory. They are not paranormal. Using mental telepathy would be paranormal. Using a radio receiver, a computer in your shoe or even training yourself to keep track of events thru a good memory is not. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/69 "2007-01-18T17:33:36Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Given that Vegas casinos make the mathematically expected return over a large number of trials it would seem that if there really are psychics who win money there are antipsychics who lose an exactly equal amount of money. Or maybe the psychic covers his tracks by making another sucker lose every time he wins. [/QUOTE] Dr. J. B. Rhine (American parapsychology researcher) did indeed identify “anti”-psychics-he found people who guessed the FOLLOWING car correctly 9not the current one)! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/70 "2007-01-18T17:40:47Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Dr. J. B. Rhine (American parapsychology researcher) did indeed identify “anti”-psychics-he found people who guessed the FOLLOWING car correctly 9not the current one)! :smack: [/QUOTE] I get your point, but Rhine arrived at this conclusion by data mining after the fact. He looked for ANYTHING in the data that might correlate with ANYTHING else. With so many possibilites to choose from, it’s not surprising that he found something, but it has never been reliably replicated. And it in no way proves that someone is pro-psychic or anti-psychic. It just shows what ridiculous conclusions can be drawn by those ignorant of probability theory. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/71 "2007-01-18T21:17:28Z")
Years ago on rec.gambling, I ran into two or three people who claimed to have the ability to “set” dice (playing craps). What they mean by this is rolling the numbers they prefer to roll. There are (or at least were) lots of people out there who claim this ability. Of course I was skeptical, so I challenged them. I asked why they weren’t independently wealthy, and they said that setting is not something that they can do every time, all they can do is increase the likelyhood that they will roll their target number by some amount. They added that someone else proficient in math had calculated that if you simply changed the probability of rolling a seven, from 0.166667 of the time, down to 0.15 of the time, the house advantage is negated and it’s then an advantage for the shooter. That’s all well and good, I said, but how do you know you really have this skill? I then presented my calculations of how many dice rolls they would have to carefully log, noting each result, to effectively characterize that sort of skew, and it was in the tens or hundreds of thousands. I then explained that unless thay had done those measurements, there was _no way_ that they _themselves_ could know whether they have the ability. The answer I got was that they had not made the measurements, but still were convinced that they indeed had the ability. I learned a lesson about psychology there. ---
**Author:** ![SleepyDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@SleepyDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SleepyDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/72 "2007-01-19T03:48:16Z")
\ [QUOTE=Lemur866] This is one of those “Show me the page in the rulebook where it says a mule can’t kick field goals” situations. [/QUOTE] ZOMG!1! I’m gonna add this to the “references to my favorite childhood movie randomly found on the internet” list. This brings the total to…One.🙂 \ Also, I love this thread because a seemingly simple question gets answered from numerous angles, including a IAAL (I think) citing Nevada Revised Statutes, as well as posters philosophising on the physical limitations of paranormal phenomena. Try getting _that_ anywhere else on teh internets, Mr. Google-is-your-friend! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/73 "2007-01-19T06:32:32Z")
[QUOTE=SleepyDuck] ZOMG!1! I’m gonna add this to the “references to my favorite childhood movie randomly found on the internet” list. This brings the total to…One.🙂 [/QUOTE] Your favorite childhood movie is _Gus_?! That makes me…sad somehow. ---
**Author:** ![mamboman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecb155/32.png) [@mamboman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mamboman)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2007, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/74 "2007-01-19T07:57:46Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] You can go to the Gaming Commission for starters. [/QUOTE] How do you prove to the Gaming Commission you won? Assuming the Casino can doctor their security tapes etc to cover your presence… mm ---
**Author:** ![SleepyDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@SleepyDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SleepyDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2007, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198/75 "2007-01-20T03:27:42Z")
[QUOTE=Otto] Your favorite childhood movie is _Gus_?! That makes me…sad somehow. [/QUOTE] No need to be sad, my palindromic friend: The kidnapped mule is rescued unharmed, and the lovable underdogs win the Super Bowl. I think; It’s been awhile. It’s got Johnny Unitas in it. Also, do you think ESP or TK could have any effect on video poker or slot machines? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cheating-in-vegas-using-esp-illegal/388198.md?page=3)