Is cheating in Vegas using ESP illegal?

[Gfactor]

Obviously there would be some definitional and factual issues involved, but here are the statutes, for those who want to consider the actual laws involved. I’ve bolded the sections that might apply.

UNLAWFUL ACTS AND EQUIPMENT

  NRS 465.070  Fraudulent acts.  It is unlawful for any person:

  1.  To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players.

 ** 2.  To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.**
  3.  To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.

  4.  Knowingly to entice or induce another to go to any place where a gambling game is being conducted or operated in violation of the provisions of this chapter, with the intent that the other person play or participate in that gambling game.

** 5. To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.**
** 6. To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.**

** 7. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game.** [If we’re assuming ESP includes telekinesis]

  8.  To offer, promise or give anything of value to anyone for the purpose of influencing the outcome of a race, sporting event, contest or game upon which a wager may be made, or to place, increase or decrease a wager after acquiring knowledge, not available to the general public, that anyone has been offered, promised or given anything of value for the purpose of influencing the outcome of the race, sporting event, contest or game upon which the wager is placed, increased or decreased.

** 9. To change or alter the normal outcome of any game played on an interactive gaming system or a mobile gaming system or the way in which the outcome is reported to any participant in the game.** [telekinesis again]

  [1911 C&P § 198; RL § 6463; NCL § 10146] + [1911 C&P § 199; RL § 6464; NCL § 10147]—(NRS A 1967, 587; 1977, 477; 1979, 1476; 1981, 1292; 1987, 414; 1989, 1112; 2001, 3095; 2005, 723)

  NRS 465.075  Use of device for calculating probabilities.  It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use, any device to assist:

  1.  In projecting the outcome of the game;

  2.  In keeping track of the cards played;

  3.  In analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or

  4.  In analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,

except as permitted by the Commission.

  (Added to NRS by 1985, 970)

  NRS 465.080  Use of counterfeit, unapproved or unlawful wagering instruments; possession of certain unlawful devices, equipment, products or materials.

  1.  It is unlawful for any licensee, employee or other person to use counterfeit chips, counterfeit debit instruments or other counterfeit wagering instruments in a gambling game, associated equipment or a cashless wagering system.

  2.  It is unlawful for any person, in playing or using any gambling game, associated equipment or cashless wagering system designed to be played with, receive or be operated by chips, tokens, wagering credits or other wagering instruments approved by the State Gaming Control Board or by lawful coin of the United States of America:

  (a) Knowingly to use other than chips, tokens, wagering credits or other wagering instruments approved by the State Gaming Control Board or lawful coin, legal tender of the United States of America, or to use coin or tokens not of the same denomination as the coin or tokens intended to be used in that gambling game, associated equipment or cashless wagering system; or

  (b) To use any device or means to violate the provisions of this chapter.

  3.  It is unlawful for any person, not a duly authorized employee of a licensee acting in furtherance of his employment within an establishment, to have on his person or in his possession on or off the premises of any licensed gaming establishment any device intended to be used to violate the provisions of this chapter.

  4.  It is unlawful for any person, not a duly authorized employee of a licensee acting in furtherance of his employment within an establishment, to have on his person or in his possession on or off the premises of any licensed gaming establishment any key or device known to have been designed for the purpose of and suitable for opening, entering or affecting the operation of any gambling game, cashless wagering system or drop box, or any electronic or mechanical device connected thereto, or for removing money or other contents therefrom.

  5.  It is unlawful for any person to have on his person or in his possession any paraphernalia for manufacturing slugs. As used in this subsection, “paraphernalia for manufacturing slugs” means the equipment, products and materials that are intended for use or designed for use in manufacturing, producing, fabricating, preparing, testing, analyzing, packaging, storing or concealing a counterfeit facsimile of the chips, tokens, debit instruments or other wagering instruments approved by the State Gaming Control Board or a lawful coin of the United States, the use of which is unlawful pursuant to subsection 2. The term includes, but is not limited to:

  (a) Lead or lead alloys;

  (b) Molds, forms or similar equipment capable of producing a likeness of a gaming token or United States coin;

  (c) Melting pots or other receptacles;

  (d) Torches;

  (e) Tongs, trimming tools or other similar equipment; and

  (f) Equipment which can be reasonably demonstrated to manufacture facsimiles of debit instruments or wagering instruments approved by the State Gaming Control Board.

  6.  Possession of more than one of the devices, equipment, products or materials described in this section permits a rebuttable inference that the possessor intended to use them for cheating.

  [1:239:1951; A 1955, 13] + [2:239:1951]—(NRS A 1965, 1467; 1967, 588; 1973, 445; 1977, 475; 1979, 1477; 1981, 1293; 1989, 971; 1991, 939; 1993, 830; 1995, 1502)

** NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether he is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.** [possible, gotta consult the rules, though]

  (Added to NRS by 1967, 1282; A 1969, 408; 1977, 325; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294)

  NRS 465.085  Unlawful manufacture, sale, distribution, marking, altering or modification of equipment and devices associated with gaming; unlawful instruction.

  1.  It is unlawful to manufacture, sell or distribute any cards, chips, dice, game or device which is intended to be used to violate any provision of this chapter.

  2.  It is unlawful to mark, alter or otherwise modify any associated equipment or gaming device, as defined in chapter 463 of NRS, in a manner that:

  (a) Affects the result of a wager by determining win or loss; or

  (b) Alters the normal criteria of random selection, which affects the operation of a game or which determines the outcome of a game.

  3.  It is unlawful for any person to instruct another in cheating or in the use of any device for that purpose, with the knowledge or intent that the information or use so conveyed may be employed to violate any provision of this chapter.

  (Added to NRS by 1967, 1283; A 1975, 697; 1977, 386; 1979, 1478; 1981, 1294; 1989, 972)

  NRS 465.088  Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.

  1.  A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:

  (a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.

  (b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.

  2.  A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.

  (Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1985, 970; 1995, 1295)

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-465.html#NRS465Sec070

Responding more directly to the OP, I doubt any case based only on statistics would go to a jury. OTOH, if they caught you bragging about it or maybe taped a confession in a jail cell, that’d be a different story.

[beergeek279]

@glee

Since the 2006 World Series of Poker offers a first prize of $12,000,000 for just one event, why bother messing around with roulette? (I’m not sure how ESP helps here anyway - presumably you mean forecasting the future.)

Because the World Series of Poker main event would be 5 days of 12-14 hour a day work, during which time if you could knowingly place bets at 35:1 you would make that main event pot look like pocket change.

[Gfactor]

Here, by the way, is the list of excluded persons, known as the Black Book: http://gaming.nv.gov/loep_main.htm

[KidKaos]

@Lumpy

Do people who win too much still get “escorted” out an alley door by four bouncers who “suggest” that they not come back?

No they get escorted to a posh room and suggestions are made they continue to gamble.

No matter what the house never loses.

[DrDeth]

Are there any laws in Vegas or Nevada about witchcraft and fortune telling?

I’d be ironic if they couldn’t arrest you for cheating but *could *burn you as a witch.

[Gfactor]

@DrDeth

Are there any laws in Vegas or Nevada about witchcraft and fortune telling?

I’d be ironic if they couldn’t arrest you for cheating but *could *burn you as a witch.

Local ordinances only penalized unlicensed astrologers, hypnotists, and practitioners of the psychic arts: Municode Library
Municode Library

[Khampelf]

@Gfactor

Here, by the way, is the list of excluded persons, known as the Black Book: http://gaming.nv.gov/loep_main.htm

Gee, it’s not as many as you’d think.

[Gfactor]

@The Sonoran Lizard King

Gee, it’s not as many as you’d think.

This is a pretty good social history of the Black Book: The Black Book and the Mob: The Untold Story of the Control of Nevada’s Casinos

Welcome to my 4000th post!

[si_blakely]

In the UK, the offence is “cheating at play,” defined in the 1864 Gambling Act, and recently used to prosecute a group of three men who used a high tech video camera hidden up his sleeve and an invisible earpiece to communicate with his mates in a van who did the actual game analysis and instruction.

They were busted by casino staff who realised that the player was winning too many hands (10 out of 44).

BBC news report

Si

[rocksolid]

@Chez Guevara

On a similar theme, here is a snippet from this morning’s (London) Times:

In 2005 a Hungarian woman and two Serbian men made £1.3 million at the Ritz in London with a scanner hidden in a mobile phone. The device calculated the speed of the roulette ball and where it was likely to land. Although the trio were arrested they were never charged, and as there had been no interference with the table they kept the money.

That’s all.

Slight hijack i know but somebody please comment on the technology used here. Is it real? Could that really be possible? I guess it must be 'cause they won bucket loads in one night but i just can’t get my head around how sophisticated the technology must have been to work this.

[ralph124c]

Suppose you have some ESP ability-suppose also that you resolve to keep this a secret. You fly to Las Vegas, and enter a casino-and start playing roulette. You start winning-but decide to "lose’ now and then (to avoid suspicion). How much could you win before they throw you out? Suppose you don’t get greedy-could you take a casion for perhaps 50,000/day without arousing suspicion? So you move on-working your way down the strip-eventually, you win several million -how long could you keep this up?

[Hypno-Toad]

@ralph124c

Suppose you have some ESP ability-suppose also that you resolve to keep this a secret. You fly to Las Vegas, and enter a casino-and start playing roulette. You start winning-but decide to "lose’ now and then (to avoid suspicion). How much could you win before they throw you out? Suppose you don’t get greedy-could you take a casion for perhaps 50,000/day without arousing suspicion? So you move on-working your way down the strip-eventually, you win several million -how long could you keep this up?

I suspect that they’d be watching you like a hawk after your second $50K. They’d probably ban you after the third $50K.

[CurtC]

And casinos share data about who’s been banned nowadays. Get banned from the Mirage, then walk into the Flamingo, and security will meet you at the door to let you know you’re not welcome there. If you did have this capability, you’d need to keep your winnings low enough to fly completely under the radar.

[si_blakely]

@rocksolid

Slight hijack i know but somebody please comment on the technology used here. Is it real? Could that really be possible? I guess it must be 'cause they won bucket loads in one night but i just can’t get my head around how sophisticated the technology must have been to work this.

Yep, it’s real. Mostly it is about timing how long it takes for the ball to make a spin before it falls and drops - using an IR laser and associated circuitry built into a mobile phone case is just icing. You could use a stopwatch and a laptop,but it may be a bit obvious. Plenty easy to build a custom miniature computer to do it, or program a PDA. The problem is that the bet-layers have to put down a fairly specific bet pattern to get the spread once the ball is in motion - the device is not accurate, but gives a general indication of where the ball might fall, which leads to a specific betting pattern. If the table is too quiet, then the spread bet pattern will be obvious, too busy and the betters might not get all the bets down.

And security will be analysing the betting patterns to look for spreads - and then they will identify the players, and then they will make you leave. With a great deal of respect and bruised kidneys.

Si

[The_Mad_Hermit]

Since ESP is not proven in the real world, and exists in the world of science-fiction and the occult, then we can look to those areas for how they did it.

I seem to remember that Psi Corps members on Babylon 5 were prohibited from entering the casino in the first place.

[Captain_Lance_Murdoch]

Based upon the previously posted Nevada law, it would seem to be illegal. It wouldn’t matter much though because it would be impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court. What prosecutor would ever take on such a case?

[pravnik]

@Captain Lance Murdoch

Based upon the previously posted Nevada law, it would seem to be illegal. It wouldn’t matter much though because it would be impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court. What prosecutor would ever take on such a case?

It might not be that bad. Just make sure you get some psychics on the jury!

[Gfactor]

@Captain Lance Murdoch

Based upon the previously posted Nevada law, it would seem to be illegal. It wouldn’t matter much though because it would be impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in court. What prosecutor would ever take on such a case?

I can think of five or six vexing criminal law/criminal procedure hypotheticals worthy of a law school final, all based on a few simple fact patterns and the quoted statutes.

@pravnik

It might not be that bad. Just make sure you get some psychics on the jury!

Make that seven.

[drillrod]

I disagree with those that believe that you would end up banned after winning merely $50 or $100K.

Large casinos in Vegas understand that luck is part of the game and that occassionally they lose. Heck, big winners are great business for them. Winners tell their friends how they hit it big. Bystanders who watch that couple turn 500 bucks into a hundred grand believe it can happen to them and they tell their friends. Everybody that hears about the nice fellow from Topeka who hit it big, thinks it can happen to them and come running, with wallet in hand.

The big winners get comped a suite and encouraged to play tomorrow evening in a nice VIP room.
“Oh, your vacation is over and you have to return to Topeka tonight? Well, please let us know when you can return and we’ll treat you to a nice stay with us. We’ll even send a limo to pick you up.”

It would take a several big hits for security to figure out that you were more than just lucky, especially if your edge was something as hard to prove as ESP. So long as you were clever about it, I’d guess you could get away with it for quite a while.

In Breaking Vegas the players who worked the casinos as a team were being comped plane tickets and suites to return. It took security quite a while to figure out they were being worked and blackjack card counters and team play is something that security watches for.

[mamboman]

@drillrod

The big winners get comped a suite and encouraged to play tomorrow evening in a nice VIP room.
“Oh, your vacation is over and you have to return to Topeka tonight? Well, please let us know when you can return and we’ll treat you to a nice stay with us. We’ll even send a limo to pick you up.”

Forgive the slight hijack - but just say I did win $500K and head back to Topeka - how does the casino pay me my money? Do they write a cheque? Do a bank transfer?

If they welsh on paying you, what recourse do you have?

mm