# Is Chivalry Dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 22, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730 "2012-05-22T16:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/21 "2012-05-22T18:02:29Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Chivalry hasn’t died, it’s just been updated. Chivalry is now respecting a woman as a person with hands and everything that can open the door for you as much as you opening the door for her. It’s respecting her in business and in the real world, and not griping about how the good women are always chasing bad boys. It’s acknowledging also that some women aren’t deserving of such manners. It’s noticing that we’re all different people, us women, not some autonomous set with boobs and a vagina. It’s getting to know our personalities. If you’re friends with me, you should know whether or not I like the door held open for me, and I certainly don’t want you to stand for me - it puts me on the spot and it’s dreadfully awkward. > > You think clinging to antiquated ways of treating women makes you a gentleman. I know a gentleman when I see one, and he is kind and respectful to all people, not just females. I never said I only treat women with respect. I treat everyone with respect. I was only talking about women in this instance. > [@BringItInBro](#): > > I’m kind of old fashioned when it comes to manners; I think men should open doors for women etc. as a sign of respect. It doesn’t, in any way, imply that a woman is weak or the lesser sex. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![corkboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@corkboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/corkboard)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/22 "2012-05-22T18:21:14Z")
I’ll hold a door for anyone that’s within a certain radius of me when I get to the door, whether they’re male or female, and I teach my daughters to do the same. I say ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ to whomever I’m speaking with because it’s polite, whether they’re male or female, and I teach my daughters to do the same. I don’t rise whenever a woman enters or exits the room because it’s antiquated, and it’s a gender-based affectation that’s in danger of being misinterpreted in a mixed-gender workplace. I think it fell out of vogue around the time we stopped referring to the women in our lives as “the little lady” and thinking of them as “the fairer sex”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/23 "2012-05-22T18:25:43Z")
> [@BringItInBro](#): > > I think men should open doors for women etc. as a sign of respect. It doesn’t, in any way, imply that a woman is weak or the lesser sex. > [@Maeganspop](#): > > Exactly. But that’s where the custom comes from and that’s more or less the mindset that it reflects. What additional respect do women get - or need - from having doors opened for them? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/24 "2012-05-22T18:33:43Z")
> [@BringItInBro](#): > > I’m kind of old fashioned when it comes to manners; I think men should open doors for women etc. as a sign of respect. It doesn’t, in any way, imply that a woman is weak or the lesser sex. Why don’t men deserve the same signs of respect? ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/25 "2012-05-22T18:34:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > But that’s where the custom comes from and that’s more or less the mindset that it reflects. What additional respect do women get - or need - from having doors opened for them? Is there any respect if I let the door close behind me as a lady, or anyone approaches? It just seems the right thing to do. Hold the door for someone who is close to coming in through that door. I also offer my seat to a woman if there are no seats available. Is that disrespectful? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/26 "2012-05-22T18:42:52Z")
You didn’t answer his question and tried to redirect. Would you mind answer his question? What additional respect do women get or need from having doors opened for them? Also, you specifically say “I always get the door for a woman and always stand when a woman approaches.” You specify that you do this for a woman. Do you always get the door for a man and stand when a man approaches? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/27 "2012-05-22T18:45:48Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > I also offer my seat to a woman if there are no seats available. Is that disrespectful? If the woman is more capable of standing for a long time (because she is younger, fitter, etc) then I would imagine it being disrespectful. Why should an able-bodied woman get a seat over an able-bodied man? Is there any reason other than the unstated assumption that women need to be taken care of more than men? ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/28 "2012-05-22T18:46:11Z")
> [@BringItInBro](#): > > I’m kind of old fashioned when it comes to manners; I think men should open doors for women etc. as a sign of respect. What if I don’t respect them? > [@Maeganspop](#): > > It just seems the right thing to do. That’s all fine and dandy, but you have to understand that it only “seems the right thing to do” because someone told you that it was. They didn’t have any evidence or rationale behind it, and thus, you don’t either. To the rest of us, it doesn’t “seem right thing to do,” it seems like the offensive and discourteous thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/29 "2012-05-22T18:47:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > these days women generally prefer to be treated like people instead of resources or fine china. That’s not a bad thing. Women? Maybe. Thankfully, ladies know better. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/30 "2012-05-22T18:48:16Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why don’t men deserve the same signs of respect? Because if a man holds the door open for another man then the door opener is clearly gay and therefore not really a man and is essentially a woman. So it then behooves the man having the door opened for him to do the manly thing and thus swap places and hold the door open for the now gay-woman initial door opener. But now wait. Now the non-man man is having a door opened for him by another man and since the non-man man is still techinically a man this makes the new door opener gay and thus not a man. So now they have to switch places again and the cycle repeats infinitely with the two men non-men men constantly swapping places and thus blocking the door to the business so now no one can enter or leave the business which is bad for business and thus bad for America. Why do you hate America? I only hold the door open for dogs with seeing eye people. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/31 "2012-05-22T18:52:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why don’t men deserve the same signs of respect? Men deserve nothing more than to be run through with your rapier or shot with your blunderbuss. (That’s a joke, for the humour impaired.) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/32 "2012-05-22T18:55:19Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It just seems the right thing to do. Hold the door for someone who is close to coming in through that door. I agree. So do it for anybody who happens to be nearby. > [@](#): > > I also offer my seat to a woman if there are no seats available. Is that disrespectful? In general that’s a nice thing to do and few people would have a problem with it. But like **MichaelEmouse** said, you didn’t answer my question. Why do women need this kind of nice treatment or respect more than men do? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/33 "2012-05-22T18:55:38Z")
Forget these naysayers. I’d love it if you’d stand when I stand; it would definitely make me feel special. Of course, I’m a man, but I assume it’d be a sign of respect for you to stand when men stand, too, right? I mean, don’t you respect men? I know you’ve got to be terribly frustrated when you stand up and a woman remains seated; it’s such a sign of disrespect for her to do so. That said, when you’re a business client, and you do something unusual that weirds out a business employee to the extent that you have to stop and explain your behavior to the employee, and the employee expresses approval of your behavior, **you can’t believe that**. You’re in a position of power over the employee at that point, since you’re potentially making money for their employer, and if they make you angry, you can complain to management and hurt their job. The employee knows this. So if you made that banker feel special, she might say, “Oh, that makes me feel so special!” And if you made that banker feel totally irritated, she might say, “Oh, that makes me feel so special!” ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/34 "2012-05-22T18:55:52Z")
I agree with the idea that chivalry isn’t dead, but has been updated. I will hold the door open for women, but I’ll also hold it open for men. In fact, I think the most respectful thing I can do for a woman is treat her no different than I would a man in some cases that means I actually think it’s more respectful to do a little less, like the whole standing thing the OP mentions. That said, if I’m on a date, obviously things are a little different, but she’s also not just a random stranger or someone I’m doing a business transaction with and of course I’d do a little bit more for someone I know personally. The only thing that really bothers me about this was one event I remember several years ago where I was just casually holding the door open for a middle-aged woman as I would have for anyone. But as she got offended and proceeded to lecture me about how women are liberated and she didn’t need my charity and such nonsense. I really hate that kind of attitude when someone is just trying to be nice. ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/35 "2012-05-22T19:12:31Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > You didn’t answer his question and tried to redirect. Would you mind answer his question? What additional respect do women get or need from having doors opened for them? > > Also, you specifically say “I always get the door for a woman and always stand when a woman approaches.” You specify that you do this for a woman. Do you always get the door for a man and stand when a man approaches? I don’t know the answer to that question. I guess it would depend on the woman. I don’t poll them to see if they feel respected or not. I would imagine that it doesn’t cross their mind that I’m trying to be respectful. They are probably just thinking I’m trying to be polite. I’ll take it. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/36 "2012-05-22T19:15:06Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > I never said I only treat women with respect. I treat everyone with respect. I was only talking about women in this instance. Well, heck, when your OP is about chivalry and treating women with respect, people tend to assume you’re only talking about women. Frankly, I think good manners are fine, it’s just that some of the old ways of expressing them are kind of pointless, especially if they’re only applied to women. Standing up when a woman enters or leaves? Why? What does that do for her on a practical level? If it’s a sign of respect, which historically it is, then it signifies respect regardless of gender. So do it for both men and women. As for holding doors, it’s a nice gesture. I’ve never felt slighted by someone holding a door for me. And I return the favor on a basically daily basis, for both men and women. But there are some instances where it’s not appropriate; take\*\* Ferret Herder\*\*'s example, where a visitor to the hospital holding a door for her contraindicates her job guideline of letting patients and visitors off the elevator first. If “good manners” involve getting in someone else’s way, then it’s not “good manners.” And I’ve never had a chair held out for me that I didn’t have to scoot and adjust anyway after sitting down. It doesn’t help and I wish people wouldn’t do it, traditional good manners or no. And DON’T get me started on guys who insist on relieving me of anything remotely heavy that I’m carrying. I’ve got it, dammit, I know my own strength; if it looks too heavy, 1)ASK ME if I want help, 2)if I say no, DON’T TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME ANYWAY. This actually happens. You want to help, take my purse for a moment; it’s also heavy, and it dangles and gets in the way. Funny how no guy ever offers to take that off my hands. I’ve asked men how to do things (run machinery, use a power tool, etc.) and sometimes the response is “Oh, I’ll get that for you.” NO, thank you, if you’ve got the time to do it, I’d rather you show me how to do it myself; someday you won’t be around to do that when it needs doing, and I won’t know how because you insisted on doing it for me. That’s not respect, that’s patronizing. Basically, take a look at any activity that you think of as “good manners” or “doing a favor” and ask yourself two things: if you would do it for another man, and if you would feel weird or awkward if another man did it for YOU. If the answers are “yes” and “no,” then do it for women with a clear conscience. If those aren’t the answers, ask yourself why those aren’t the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/37 "2012-05-22T19:19:55Z")
It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ In my small town it seems to be appreciated. When I travel I will tone it down. Thanks everyone for participating. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/38 "2012-05-22T19:21:42Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ Why the frowny face? Just be nice to everybody and don’t condescend to women. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/39 "2012-05-22T19:21:51Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > I am 41. While I was growing up I was taught how to be well mannered and a gentleman. To always say please, thank you, yes ma’am/sir, and no ma’am/sir. I always get the door for a woman and always stand when a woman approaches. > > Now days when I stand for a woman, they seem confused. Example, I was at the bank. I came in and sat down to speak with a lady. She had to get up and get something. I stood as she got up and she told me not to leave she would be right back. I told her that I always stand when a lady stands. She was taken aback by that. After my explanation she said it made her feel special. > > Why do women not see it as the thing that a gentleman does? Has good manners died and been wiped from peoples memory? Sadly, yes. It has become cool to be a jerk. People no longer show courtesy and respect to one another as a de facto standard of behavior. > [@](#): > > Men, start being a gentleman! If you can make someone feel special just by standing, do it. Bring back good manners. I feel as if I was born in the wrong time period. > > To all the men out there that do practice good manners, thanks. I feel all women deserve to be treated as ladies. Even if a woman has murdered someone. You should still open the door to her jail cell. > > Sorry about the length of this post and the rambling. I am just frustrated with the lack of good manners I see these days. > > Thanks for reading. Thanks for posting this. Courtesy and respect are two of the fundamental life skills that we teach in our Taekwondo school. And it is saddening to be talking about basic courtesy, such as opening doors, etc., and have a nine year old kid ask why he should open doors for women because they don’t do anything for him. ☹ We do what we can, **Maeganspop**. We lead by example and we keep doing what’s right. That’s all we can do. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/40 "2012-05-22T19:27:33Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ > > In my small town it seems to be appreciated. When I travel I will tone it down. > > Thanks everyone for participating. Tone what down? Are you going to stop opening doors for people or something? ETA: Look. Women don’t especially want or need special treatment. You talk about respecting women; how about respecting what they actually appreciate, and not what you think they should appreciate? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730.md?page=3)