# Is Chivalry Dead? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 22, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730 "2012-05-22T16:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/41 "2012-05-22T19:30:58Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ I gotta say, I think you’re being pretty nonresponsive, and you’re showing some pretty serious disrespect to women in this thread who are telling you about their experiences with exactly the sort of chivalry you’ve talked about. You ought to be listening to what real women who aren’t in a client-employee relationship with you have to say about what you call chivalry. Consideration is great. Respect is great. Treating people differently because of their plumbing, in circumstances in which plumbing doesn’t matter, is pretty problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/42 "2012-05-22T19:31:48Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why the frowny face? Just be nice to everybody and don’t condescend to women. You and your complicated Yankee logic… ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/43 "2012-05-22T19:39:28Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ It appears that you don’t understand that the most important part of good manners is never let the recipient feel awkward or ill at ease. ---
**Author:** ![iftheresaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecae2f/32.png) [@iftheresaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iftheresaway)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/44 "2012-05-22T19:39:35Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ > > In my small town it seems to be appreciated. When I travel I will tone it down. > > Thanks everyone for participating. I don’t think anyone here is saying chivalry is dead. I think what people are saying is that it’s expanded. In some ways, it’s harder - you can’t look around for people with lady-parts and be nice to them, you have to think about how you can make being out in the world a nicer experience for everyone around you. For example, I work from home and have a pretty flexible schedule, so I’ll often hold the door, let people go in front of m in line, etc. - I’ve got the time & they may not, so I try to make their day a little easier when possible. By the same token, now that I’m nearly eight months pregnant and moving a little more slowly than I’m used to, chivalry is letting me cut ahead in he bathroom line or not grousing when I’m waddling along ahead of you. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/45 "2012-05-22T19:40:06Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > You and your complicated Yankee logic… Yo momma. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/46 "2012-05-22T19:40:20Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Well, heck, when your OP is about chivalry and treating women with respect, people tend to assume you’re only talking about women. > > Frankly, I think good manners are fine, it’s just that some of the old ways of expressing them are kind of pointless, especially if they’re only applied to women. Standing up when a woman enters or leaves? Why? What does that do for her on a practical level? If it’s a sign of respect, which historically it is, then it signifies respect regardless of gender. So do it for both men and women. > > As for holding doors, it’s a nice gesture. I’ve never felt slighted by someone holding a door for me. And I return the favor on a basically daily basis, for both men and women. But there are some instances where it’s not appropriate; take\*\* Ferret Herder\*\*'s example, where a visitor to the hospital holding a door for her contraindicates her job guideline of letting patients and visitors off the elevator first. If “good manners” involve getting in someone else’s way, then it’s not “good manners.” > > And I’ve never had a chair held out for me that I didn’t have to scoot and adjust anyway after sitting down. It doesn’t help and I wish people wouldn’t do it, traditional good manners or no. > > And DON’T get me started on guys who insist on relieving me of anything remotely heavy that I’m carrying. I’ve got it, dammit, I know my own strength; if it looks too heavy, 1)ASK ME if I want help, 2)if I say no, DON’T TAKE IT AWAY FROM ME ANYWAY. This actually happens. You want to help, take my purse for a moment; it’s also heavy, and it dangles and gets in the way. Funny how no guy ever offers to take that off my hands. > > I’ve asked men how to do things (run machinery, use a power tool, etc.) and sometimes the response is “Oh, I’ll get that for you.” NO, thank you, if you’ve got the time to do it, I’d rather you show me how to do it myself; someday you won’t be around to do that when it needs doing, and I won’t know how because you insisted on doing it for me. That’s not respect, that’s patronizing. > > Basically, take a look at any activity that you think of as “good manners” or “doing a favor” and ask yourself two things: if you would do it for another man, and if you would feel weird or awkward if another man did it for YOU. If the answers are “yes” and “no,” then do it for women with a clear conscience. If those aren’t the answers, ask yourself why those aren’t the answers. ˆ Quoted just because I wanted to read that again. I’m from The Age Of Chivalry, and I’ve had to confront the fact that many of my “good manners” are demeaning to women. So I extend the practical ones to all genders (like opening doors), and stop myself from AUTOMATICALLY doing the sexist ones. Wouldn’t you feel a little miffed if some good ol’ boy grabbed a bag of produce out of your hands with “Here, li’l lady, I’ll git thet biiig, heavy bag o’ stuff fer ya!” (yeah, I talk like that when I’m channelling my inner Boss Hogg) So I’ve learned to ask first. “Hey, want any help?” is something I’d ask anyone. True story: At a Christian camp I counseled at, a clean-cut college boy pulled a girl’s chair out for her. She grabbed it back with genuine annoyance: **“HEY! That’s _my_ chair!”** ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/47 "2012-05-22T19:42:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Why the frowny face? Just be nice to everybody and don’t condescend to women. Because, I was hoping for more backup to my way of thinking. I guess I am behind the times. I did find this article though. [Etiquette Of A Gentleman](http://www.askmen.com/money/successful/41_success.html) ---
**Author:** ![happycamper\_5](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@happycamper\_5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happycamper_5)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/48 "2012-05-22T19:45:29Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ > > In my small town it seems to be appreciated. When I travel I will tone it down. > > Thanks everyone for participating. Since you seem to be a big proponent of ‘chivalry’, tell me, am I being chivalrous when I, an able-bodied women, give up my seat for a elderly man? How about an elderly woman? Or a woman who’s clearly pregnant? Or a man holding a sleeping child? If the answer is yes to any of these, then it appears that chivalry is not dead. If the answer is no, then continue frowning at the idea that outdated & incorrect notions of societal behavior are long gone. Seems to me that the majority here (and off-board, if my experience is an accurate indication) are much happier with modern courtesy. [QUOTE=Clothahump] And it is saddening to be talking about basic courtesy, such as opening doors, etc., and have a nine year old kid ask why he should open doors for women because they don’t do anything for him. [/QUOTE] If you told him he should only hold the door for women, then I don’t blame him for asking why. What logical purpose does it serve to be courteous to one gender and not the other? Why not be respectful to everyone? Is there something wrong with holding a door for someone just because it’s nice and not because they have certain sexual organs? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/49 "2012-05-22T19:51:08Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > Because, I was hoping for more backup to my way of thinking. I guess I am behind the times. A little, yes. I’m sure your heart is in the right place but it sounds like you want to do the chivalry thing even if it sometimes sends the wrong message, which is that women are more in need help than men. The people you’re being polite to should be more important than the act of being showily polite - otherwise you’re actually just being rude in a convoluted way. 😉 If your wife or date needs your help getting a coat on, she can ask you. If not, assume she can dress herself. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/50 "2012-05-22T19:52:09Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > It appears that Chivalry is dead. ☹ > > In my small town it seems to be appreciated. When I travel I will tone it down. > > Thanks everyone for participating. Hey wait! Don’t forget your muddy cloak… ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/51 "2012-05-22T19:55:11Z")
Maybe I didn’t make it clear, I show common courtesy to everyone. Opening doors, asking people if they need help, offering my seat if none are available, etc… I do this regardless of gender. There are certain things that I only do for women. Standing when they approach in casual settings and when walking with a woman I always walk on the street side of a sidewalk. At parties or other social events I will ask a woman if they need anything like a drink or food. Unless I’m addressing a group, then I will ask all (men or women) If they need anything. I hope this clears up some of what people are addressing with me. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/52 "2012-05-22T19:57:12Z")
I’m female, and appreciate tradition. However, I hold the door for WHOEVER is behind me, doesn’t matter if they’re twice my size. And while I do value manners, the standing up when someone else does just…never made any sense to me, then OR now. So…that is something that the OP can use as an affectation, but there is no value in it. ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/53 "2012-05-22T20:02:04Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > So…that is something that the OP can use as an affectation, but there is no value in it. I admit I’ve never heard of Affectation. I did look it up though. I don’t think it applies. My behavior is natural and genuinely felt by me. I do enjoy adding words to my vocabulary though. Thanks and I really mean that. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/54 "2012-05-22T20:04:14Z")
[QUOTE=Chivalry] I think I’ll for a walk. [/QUOTE] .. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/55 "2012-05-22T20:08:37Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > Maybe I didn’t make it clear, I show common courtesy to everyone. Opening doors, asking people if they need help, offering my seat if none are available, etc.. I do this regardless of gender. > > There are certain things that I only do for women. Standing when they approach in casual settings and when walking with a woman I always walk on the street side of a sidewalk. At parties or other social events I will ask a woman if they need anything like a drink or food. Unless I’m addressing a group, then I will ask all (men or women) If they need anything. > > I hope this clears up some of what people are addressing with me. Again, and not to be ornery, but if these are the only ways you treat women differently than men, then what do you need to “tone down” when you leave your small town? ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/56 "2012-05-22T20:19:51Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > Again, and not to be ornery, but if these are the only ways you treat women differently than men, then what do you need to “tone down” when you leave your small town? I guess mainly the standing when a lady approaches and possibly the offering of my seat unless the person is much older or infirmed in some way. I’ll probably still hold doors open for people. I’m not sure about walking on the street side of a sidewalk when walking with a woman though. That’s a decision I’ll have to make when the situation arises. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/57 "2012-05-22T20:23:26Z")
I’ve always wondered why men stood when women entered the room, or when the woman stood; might have to ask Cecil about that one. 🙂 I mean, beyond the idea that ‘It’s just how it’s done’; I get that. But why did it start in the first place? Hrm…All a quick google gets me is that it’s a world-wide thing; not in EVERY country, but in many diverse cultures. So now I’m _really_ curious. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/58 "2012-05-22T20:28:00Z")
> [@Maeganspop](#): > > I’ll probably still hold doors open for people. That’s the one you should keep doing! It’s actually thoughtful and actually useful. Standing for people doesn’t do anything (other than perhaps make your guests feel like you are waiting for them), and I wouldn’t expect anybody to notice if you favor the street side unless they’re trying to walk on that side and you don’t let them. ---
**Author:** ![Maeganspop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e56c9b/32.png) [@Maeganspop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeganspop)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/59 "2012-05-22T20:38:36Z")
> [@Taomist](#): > > I’ve always wondered why men stood when women entered the room, or when the woman stood; might have to ask Cecil about that one. 🙂 I mean, beyond the idea that ‘It’s just how it’s done’; I get that. But why did it start in the first place? Hrm…All a quick google gets me is that it’s a world-wide thing; not in EVERY country, but in many diverse cultures. > > So now I’m _really_ curious. I’m not sure either. Maybe it started as a sign of respect. Why it would show respect I don’t know.😕 ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730/60 "2012-05-22T20:45:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s the one you should keep doing! It’s actually thoughtful and actually useful. Standing for people doesn’t do anything (other than perhaps make your guests feel like you are waiting for them), and I wouldn’t expect anybody to notice if you favor the street side unless they’re trying to walk on that side and you don’t let them. I’ve always noticed that one 🙂 Probably because I’m the oldest of four, and even though female, I always walked on the street side to protect the sibs. From WHAT, couldn’t tell you; not like a car wouldn’t knock us ALL down if it jumped onto the sidewalk, lol. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-chivalry-dead/622730.md?page=4)