# Is Christianity a "lazy" religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 5, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605 "2003-04-05T01:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AvidReader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@AvidReader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AvidReader)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/41 "2003-04-05T20:07:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skankweirdall \* > \*\*My Protestant interpretation of that is, if you have faith then good works will follow. Not that they must follow though. > My understanding of Catholicism is, if you don’t do good works than you don’t have faith. > > Just my subjective opinion here… \*\* That’s right **Skank** it’s all just opinion. Being one who does not put any credence in organized religion I think you’re both right. Who’ll prove you wrong. Last I heard we have’nt heard from the Big Boy in the Sky in in the last 2000 years. I’m more inclined to [Krokodil\*\*'s assessment (although not totally): **Take anyone from such a strict environment and put him in a less-strict one, you’ll see a change. Take Smapdi out of Yemen and stick him in a booze-and-porn-selling convenience store, and I doubt he’ll be praying four times a day and abluting his feet. I know I took to public school like a duck takes to water.** This strays somewhat and is a little harsh but one gets the point. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/42 "2003-04-05T20:19:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Okay, call them “traditions,” though the distinction escapes me./B] I think the distinction is fairly obvious. Rituals are _procedures_. The use of Christmas trees and Easter eggs are not. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Unless you were trying to get unnecessarily nitpicky and claim that the trees and the eggs _themselves_ aren’t rituals. Fine, the trees and the eggs are holiday _symbols_, but decorating the former and painting the latter are deliberate actions taken for symbolic value, i.e. rituals. \*\* First of all, that’s hardly a nitpicky distinction. Second, people may decorate their Christmas trees and Easter eggs, but I think it’s a huge stretch stretch to call these practices “rituals” – certainly not in any religious sense of the term. They are no more rituals than, say, sitting down each week with a bowl of popcorn to watch _Dawson’s Creek_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/43 "2003-04-05T20:32:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > people may decorate their Christmas trees and Easter eggs, but I think it’s a huge stretch stretch to call these practices “rituals” – certainly not in any religious sense of the term. They are no more rituals than, say, sitting down each week with a bowl of popcorn to watch _Dawson’s Creek_. I wasn’t aware we were using “ritual” only in its most formal sense, but certainly there are many Christians who _believe_ Christmas trees and Easter eggs are important parts of the holiday, despite lack of “official” sanction from a particular church group. The amount of effort put into these rituals should count if one is trying to determine how “lazy” Christians are, even if the religion itself doesn’t endorse them. It’s not even a stretch, let alone a huge stretch. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/44 "2003-04-05T20:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AvidReader \* > **That’s right Skank it’s all just opinion. Being one who does not put any credence in organized religion I think you’re both right. Who’ll prove you wrong. Last I heard we have’nt heard from the Big Boy in the Sky in in the last 2000 years.** I’m sorry but I think you misunderstood. We were discussing tenets of religious doctrine. Not whether or not they are universal truths. So any apologist for either doctrine could easily correct me. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/45 "2003-04-05T21:01:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I wasn’t aware we were using “ritual” only in its most formal sense, but certainly there are many Christians who _believe_ Christmas trees and Easter eggs are important parts of the holiday, despite lack of “official” sanction from a particular church group. \*\* Well first of all, you spoke of Christmas trees and Easter eggs replacing older religious rituals. This certainly implies a fairly formal sense of the term. But even if it doesn’t, the point remains. The use of Christmas trees and Easter eggs may be important parts of the holidays, but that doesn’t make them rituals. I believe it’s important for me to send my mother a Valentines Day card every year, but I would hardly consider that to be a “ritual.” I also consider it important to call her on her birthday, but it would be ridiculous to call that a ritual as well. The use of trees and eggs may be customary, but I think it’s absurd to say that they are ritualistic in nature. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/46 "2003-04-05T21:16:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > \*\*Well first of all, you spoke of Christmas trees and Easter eggs replacing older religious rituals. This certainly implies a fairly formal sense of the term. \*\* Only if a renaissance Vatican council was discussing it and somone declared “Y’know, this sale of indulgences thing has run its course. What say next year we just put popcorn strings on pine trees?” The “replacing” I was describing was a gradual change, with older rituals fading away and newer rituals taking their place, not an abrupt one-for-one swap. The rest of your post is just debating the exact meaning of the word “ritual”, with your version being somewhat stricter than mine, and definitional debates are the most pointless of all. They’re a little too Clinton-esque. ---
**Author:** ![Gaijin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/838e76/32.png) [@Gaijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaijin)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/47 "2003-04-05T21:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by skankweirdall \* > \*\*My Protestant interpretation of that is, if you have faith then good works will follow. Not that they must follow though. > My understanding of Catholicism is, if you don’t do good works than you don’t have faith. > > Just my subjective opinion here, raised a Catholic early but rejected it later. I could be wrong as I’ve heard that has changed now, but I have no first hand knowledge of that. Feel free to correct me. \*\* I’ll take you up on that. You can have faith without works… but, as far as Catholicism is concerned, it’s not going to do you much good. James, Chapter 2, verses 14-17: “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? _So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead._” Italics mine. Re-iterated in Verse 26: “For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” Faith, for a believer, is necessary. It’s in the nature of being a believer. And one who is strong in faith will probably give forth good works. But we feel that works are, indeed, necessary. Faith without works is a dead faith. Belief in Christ without acting on His message is dead belief. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/48 "2003-04-05T21:49:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaijin \* > \*\*Faith, for a believer, is necessary. It’s in the nature of being a believer. And one who is strong in faith will probably give forth good works. But we feel that works are, indeed, necessary. Faith without works is a dead faith. Belief in Christ without acting on His message is dead belief. \*\* Fair enough. Just a point of clarification here, and I’ll phrase it so **Avid Reader** does not misinterpret it, does Catholic doctrine believe that the person not acting on that faith by doing good works is then not going to heaven unless he repents and changes his ways? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/49 "2003-04-05T23:46:09Z")
No, not _quite_. They don’t say “you’re not going to Heaven”, because Catholics don’t do the whole, “who is saved and who isn’t is going to hell.” At least, not so simplistically. It’s more, if you don’t do what is right, then you probably aren’t a good Christian. However, when you do die, you’ll probably have to answer for it. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![shoe1234](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@shoe1234](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoe1234)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/50 "2003-04-06T00:50:46Z")
It’s obvious that there is a wide range of inherent “dedication” within the Christian Religion(especially in the states); I believe this is also true with Judaism. In addition to what **Copaesthetic** said, I know some Apostolic Pentacostals who also do not watch TV; consider “modest apparel” to exclude shorts and short sleeves, and no pants for women(obviously no dresses for men)–the women wear dresses and the men wear pants and long sleeves; and the standard for prayer and bible study is on the order of atleast an hour/day. Also, most of the congregation attends 3-4+ services(usually 3, 2 hrs apiece)/bible studies/outreach/other church functions per week. Obviously these is not “required” for church attendance, but it is normal for more conservative Pentacostals. Oppostition of public schooling is also prevalent. In regards to the custom of the Christmas tree, it is pagan in origin. “Since earliest times everygreen trees have been worshipped as symbols of life, fertility, sexual potency and reproduction, and were often brought into the house and set up as idols.”([Site](http://got.net/~seasons/christmas.html)) I’ve seen a biblical reference to it used: > [@](#): > > Jer 10:2-4 > 2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. > > 3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. > > 4 **They deck it with silver and with gold** ; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. > KJV **Pentacostal Support for hair customs** > [@](#): > > 1 Cor 11:14-15 > 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? > > 15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. > KJV ---
**Author:** ![j.c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@j.c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j.c)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/51 "2003-04-06T03:34:28Z")
I’m surprised no Christian has suggested that Christian don’t need to keep reminding themselves who and what they are! 😃 There have been Christian sects that required members to give up sex, that seems like a big chore this athiest. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/52 "2003-04-06T04:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by montag01 \* > **Obviously Christianity has many broad sects, and Catholicism certainly place requirements on its followers; but by and large Christianity (or at least the Protestant version I was raised in) strikes me as a religion that does not require much daily sacrifice. There are no daily “call to prayers,” there are generally no diet restrictions, and no mandatory pilgrimages I can recall.** The difference is a matter of rejecting legalism. Legalism is the doctrine that going through a list of specific acts will guarantee “the good stuff”. Most forms of Christianity reject legalism. This does not say that there is no rigor. In Orthodox Christianity, we are expected to have at least twice-daily prayers, to participate in four fasts yearly (one per season), to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays, to give alms (especially during Lent), etc. However, there is little institutionalization of these acts–we are supposed to see to them individually. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/53 "2003-04-06T06:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by j.c. \* > \*\*There have been Christian sects that required members to give up sex, \*\* Such as? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/54 "2003-04-06T06:56:21Z")
There was an extremist Russian group that practiced castration and breast removal. They were never very numerous. _An Underground History_ (that’s a book, not a web site) had a short bit on them. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/55 "2003-04-06T08:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JThunder \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by j.c._ > > There have been Christian sects that required members to give up sex, > > \*\*Such as? \*\* The Shakers. [http://www.shaker.lib.me.us/](http://www.shaker.lib.me.us/) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/56 "2003-04-06T13:45:54Z")
**Dogface** is speaking of an extremist group among the Old Believers, which a person more familiar than I with the Russian Orthodox would have to describe. The OB themselves were just strong traditionalists rebelling against the church reforms of Peter the Great, but they grew a couple of fringe groups. Other than that, the Shakers, as pointed out by **Amarinth** , were perhaps the only group to espouse celibacy as a “lifestyle.” The Cathari (Albigenses) of 14th Century Aquitaine are an interesting case in point – they were structured in two groups. According to their opponents (so take this with significant quantities of salt) they were structured into an “outer group” of not-yet-perfect who practiced sexual license and an inner group of “Perfects” who pledged celibacy. The overall idea that Christianity has a problem with sex is one that sprung up a few decades ago, and has its roots in a total misunderstanding of responsible behavior and freedom in the context of commitment to God. Quite simply, Christians are called to be as nearly perfect as possible, by the explicit words of Christ. (And we all fall short of that goal.) Okay, then, as an ideal, nearly everyone concurs in the idea that the best such relationship is a lifetime commitment to one partner whom one loves with every fiber of one’s being, with lots of good hot sex between them. Anything else is “sinful,” not in the sense that it’s an evil, forbidden thing, but in the sense that it falls short of that ideal. (The word Paul and the other N.T. writers use for sin, _hamartia_, literally means “falling short.” It’s not a “this is good; this is evil” thing, but rather a quest for the best, and a refusal to take even B+ sex when A+ sex is possible. Being focused on those for whom a lifelong committed relationship sanctioned by church and state is possible, this concept does of course cause some injury to others for whom such a relationship is not possible, or not yet: teens, who are told that they’re not ready for marriage and that sexual desire outside marriage is sinful – and some church leaders with common sense are reforming that outmoded concept to take into account that teens are possessed of strong sexual desire as God’s gift; it’s our society that has defined the time of marriage as beyond their reach; and, of course, gays and lesbians. I’d rather avoid the question of what Christian ethics has to say about polyamory right at the moment, since I’m trying to present a consensus view and not merely my own in getting into this. Just for the record, applying the conditions of [the Baptismal Covenant](http://www.holycross-raleigh.org/bcp/304.html) to how _I_ and **CJHoworth** are expected to look at a transgendered person, I’d have to say that we owe them the respect and compassion to regard them as people who know themselves, in their inner spirits, to be something that their bodies do not express, and that we’re therefore called by our own beliefs to treat them as they wish to be treated, F2Ms as men and M2Fs as women, regardless of whether they’ve begun or completed a course of treatment. That’s not merely courtesy but a direct command of Christ applied to our call to follow Him and to their situation. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/57 "2003-04-06T14:25:15Z")
Note that the Shakers did not intend to be the end-all, be-all of Christianity. They were really just people wo wanted to live a simpler life of fellowship and peace, and arguably succeeded. Sadly, there are only a few left. ---
**Author:** ![skankweirdall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@skankweirdall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skankweirdall)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/58 "2003-04-06T14:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **It’s not a “this is good; this is evil” thing, but rather a quest for the best, and a refusal to take even B+ sex when A+ sex is possible.** I’ll take A+ please. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![I\_Brian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I\_Brian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Brian)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605/59 "2003-04-06T15:08:38Z")
Yes - the 1 Corinthians quote must have been such a bummer on Jesus. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-christianity-a-lazy-religion/166605.md?page=2)