Is Christopher Reeve An Actual Fucking Saint Yet?

The BBQ Pit
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Scylla, everything I’ve read indicates that Reeve took his riding very seriously. He rode 5-6 days a week and took 3 or more lessons a week. He was not overfaced nor unsucessful at his level (Training level Eventing). His horse was not a “finely tuned machine” about to go to the olympics or anything. Of course it was well bred and well trained. Only an idiot doesn’t buy the best they can afford. Your implication that he handed off a horse to a groom is insulting to eventers.

I have also spoken with some who saw the accident. The horse backed off the fence (translation: started slowing down) for an unknown reason. The fence was a very straighforward vertical, not the first element of a combination. You actually don’t see combinations on Training level courses. Some observers thought the horse was looking at a depression/ditch on the other side of the fence, but its hard to say. This depression (or swale as they are known) was NOT considered an onstacle and not flagged as such. To say it was a combination is just wrong.

He did not "pull the reins and “lift his legs” (whatever that means). What happened is that he jumped ahead, which means he began to move his body towards the jump before the horse did. In other words he was ahead of the motion, not behind it. As all eventers know, riding behind the motion is considered the “defensive seat” and is CONSIDERABLY safer than getting ahead. (Which is a not uncommon fault, and a mistake even the best make sometimes) when the horse stopped, he went forward over its shoulder. Part of the problem was simply his build, which was top-heavy and that does tend to pitch you forward. His hands tangled in the reins, preventing him from breaking his fall. He did “the lawn dart” head first into the dirt. The weight of his body compressed his spine. His surgeons said

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Now that is one HELL of a multiple post! :smiley:

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Get used to it. Journalists as a rule are lazy. When Mr. Reeves was injured it was news – I mean how many movie stars become quads? Now, in every journalists roladex, there is a card which reads “handicap soundbite/triumph over adversity” – Chris Reeves (555)-555-5555.

Watch the news networks – it is the same people giving their same opinions day in and day out for every topic. Once someone is in the “soundbite/story” loop you are in for life.

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Is he a saint? I dunno, let me get my St. Christopher medal out…

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That’s got to be a record.

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Man that poor “submit” button took a pounding.

:rolleyes:

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Yeah, I think. I never even clicked the submit button either! I emailed a mod about it. Sorry guys. If anyone wants to read a very indepth, very horsey discussion of the accident, please visit the Chronicle of the Horse Eventing Forum, the thread is:

Long story short, it was a freak accident. And “People” is no place to get information on horse sports! Or anything, really.

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I’ve always heard that part of the problem was his size and that at 6’4" and 200+ lbs he probably shouldn’t have been jumping, in terms of what the horse could take.

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So, Hello Again and Again and Again, what did his surgeons say??? :wink:

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I just think this bears repeating.
:smiley:

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Scylla, I’ll have to agree that you’ve made an awful lot of broadly-brushed assumptions in your post.

Esprix

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People don’t nominate Reeve for sainthood because he’s disabled. They do it because he’s using his remaining assets (brains and money) to really push for research. He’s actually asking Bush to reconsider the stem cell research decision he made, which could open doors for a lot of people down the road. I think it’s terrific. I know he didn’t do anything like this before his injury, but better late than never.

I also read that he was a very serious rider. He was very experienced and very dedicated…not just some celebrity that’s taking photo ops on horseback.

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It wasn’t his fault. The every post has the same time. The software only allows one submission every 60 seconds per user. You couldn’t post 10 times in one minute if you tried to.

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What’s strawman about it? Did you or did you not imply that all people who are well-off enough to afford trainers and grooms are not qualified to ride? You did say, “They have no business being out there, at all. They don’t have the skills, and they don’t know their own horses well enough to ride them in a competition,” right? And how do you know so much about Christopher Reeve’s training regimen? How do you know he was woefully unprepared to enter that or any other competition? He was riding for many years before his accident. Bo Derek has been riding for years too. How do you know she’s one of those people with “shitty skills” who doesn’t know her own horse and wins anyway?

And I could be mistaken, but mustn’t someone have some kind of credentials in order to enter a competition? Or do they just let any woefully unprepared person who waltzes up on his magnificently trained-by-his trainer horse get in? It didn’t work that way at the last horse show I was at but maybe it does at others.

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Re: OP. I appreciate your POV on this, but don’t agree, for many of the reasons stated in this thread.

I know that if it had been me, chances are excellent that even with the money and help I would have given up and probably be dead by now. If not through some kind of active (assisted) suicide, then simply because I would have slipped into such a deep depression that my health would have deteriorated to an unsuustainable place.

His fight for research and funding is fine, but that follows his fight to live and be happy. I admire anyone who can and does get handed some seriously horrible life circumstances and does the hard work of creating a good life out of them. And he’s gone even farther than that, he’s busted his ass every day since the accident, for hours, determined to improve his health or even, dream of dreams, be cured entirely. (The doctors are saying at this point that it cannot be ruled out.) The vast majority of people would have bought into what the doctors say about such injuries and stopped trying. Some people would label his continuing to try as some kind of delusional pigheadedness. And some people would admire the determination in the face of crushing odds.

I feel the same way about, for instance, the young woman who was profiled on 20/20 some years ago. Both her parents were drug addicted AIDS victims deep in their addictions. After her mother died, she found herself literally living on the street. sleeping in doorways and eating out of trashcans. While living on the street in this way, the young woman conned her way into a prep school and took a double load of classes, graduating with straight A’s in half the normal time. While eating out of trash cans and hiding her situation. When she was asked how she felt about her parents, she said she loved them, didnt’ blame them for anything , and was grateful to them, because they had shown her how NOT to live. (She ended up getting a scholarship to Harvard.)

Just another example of someone overcoming horrible circumstances in a manner far beyond anything I would be capable of. And that’s all the Reeve worship is about. My god, the man has WILLED himself to be able to feel and move! Yeah, I admire him.

stoid

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MissBunny, I agree with you. I have in-laws who are horse people and you have to be on top of it to compete. No one in their right mind would attempt to compete without serious training under their belt.

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Hello Again:

I read through the thread you cited (excellent source by the way, I bookmarked it, thanks,) and their seems to be some disagreement over those who were there.

Flowerpower and Janet credibly state that it was not a simple “post and rail” but a zigzag (which also is not an in and out, but may be possible for one to be confused with it at a distance on cross-country course.)

Janet claims to have been there, and flowerpower talked to several who were, and agree with what I heard that he got left on a jump followed by a stop or a refusal (it’s not clear which.)

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**

I did not.

**

Yes, I did. You seem to think my they refers to all wealthy people. That is your own misconstrual. It refers to the wealthy and unqualified.

I saw Peter Leone fly in in a helicopter to jump the grand prix at the Garden State Horse Show in 1999 (I think it was Peter.) He had wealth and grooms, and excellent horses. More importantly, he had superior skills.

**

I’ve seen them both ride, and my opinion of their skills is an expert one (BTW Bo Derek doesn’t do jumpers to my knowledge)

Besides my own personal experience in eventing, and training, I was also the Director or Horsemanship for an ACA camp, with over thirty horses, and judged events at the Maiden and Novice levels at both that and other camps, as well as intercamp shows for four straight summers.

This is not as good as if I had actually held a real judges card , or had judged at higher or more recognized levels and shows. However, I think it qualifies me to have an opinion of their relative skills.

The truth is at most shows you can pretty much enter whatever you want to enter (with some notable exceptions.) Different classes at different shows have different requirements. For example, you are not supposed to enter novice equitation or fences until you’ve placed out of Maiden, and you’re not supposed to enter Training until you’ve placed out of Novice.

Realistically, these guidelines are rarely followed, and people enter classes at the level that they and their trainers feel they can compete.

I myself went straight from Novice without placing out, to Open Jumpers, but I had the skills.

While I have not witnessed Mr. Reeves’ riding skills firsthand, I’ve seen footage. It appeared to me that he had bad leg and heel position, and was still riding on his ass rather than supporting himself by his thighs. His seat seemed rough and unstable. His hands seemed loud. From what I personally saw, he wasn’t riding good enough to win a Maiden equitation competition. So, if it was indeed a Training level cross country course he was riding (and I don’t recall if this would be simply judged by faults or by equitation it’s been so long,) he really didn’t belong out there.

His equitation skills would suggest he should just be beginning to jump, though perhaps he was good enough for Novice.

The accident itself was tragic, and I am not unsympathetic. However, it’s a pretty common sight at horse shows to watch underqualified people attempt to compete well above their abilities, and go flying ass over tea kettle after mangling half a course.

It’s also not uncommon to see very poor quality riders on excellent horses win an event like a Timed First round, Gambler’s Choice, Five Bar, or a Green Jumper just because they managed to stay on and on course in spite of themselves.

Essentially, such riders have brought in a ringer in terms of their horse and the training it has received, and it’s often unfair to the people who are there and competing based on their own merits.

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Reeve’s horse Bucket was 17 “hands high” (which is 5’8" at the shoulder) which is not too small for his frame, although he was a large man. If I may quote from the thread I link,

“As far as “too small” for Mr. Reeve, I think it would be fairer to say that his build combined with the laws of gravity, made riding more challenging for him.”

Oh, what the surgeons said was that if he had landed fractionally to one side, he would be dead, and if fractionally to the other side, he would have walked away from it. Real freak thing.

The thing about it is, Scylla, people who are riding behind the motion don’t usually go over the horse’s head. Riding behind the motion to fences is actually recommended in eventing, and it is considered a “safety” position. Later posters in that thread assert that he had a tendency to get ahead. Janet does not claim that he got left, and FlowerPower’s description is factually incorrect (she may have conflated it with another fall).

Just to put it in perspective, earlier this summer, multiple-times Olympic rider Bruce Davidson had a fall with his Olympic horse, High Scope. His pelvis was crushed, he was on a respirator for several days. Are you going to tell me that because Bruce Davidson has a stableful of grooms and a horse that is owned by someone else, that he did not have to skill to ride it? Give me a break! Accidents can happen to ANY rider with ANY skill level. That’s why they call it “risky.”

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I’m absolutely unqualified to give any response in terms of either handicap or horsemanship, but what the hey…

My response to the OP was, "Just because there are a lot of people with severe handicaps who are coping well and are NOT hailed as heroes does NOT mean that Chris Reeves is any less of one."      He's lost something infinitely valuable and managed to soldier on in a very creditable fashion.   Seems heroic to me, and I've got a lot of respect for him.  I'd probably have a lot of respect for the OP too, except that I've never met him and never heard of him.

My response to Scylla’s post (aside from a * sotto voce * “Here we go again”) is that there are some people who just refuse to believe that shit happens. Scylla is one of those people. He seems to feel that if you are sufficiently competent and capable (like he is), then no ill will befall you. Therefore, if shit does happen, then the person must have done something to deserve it, through stupidity, or through a lack of competence. I pretty much think that no matter how much you prepare, no matter how good you are, there’s always a chance of ending up at the wrong end of a probability curve. (Hey, look at what happened to Scylla’s namesake in the Marathon Man.)