# Is church tax status in any danger? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [January 27, 2025, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481 "2025-01-27T17:12:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/21 "2025-01-27T20:42:19Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > A big supportive voting block for Trump is the religious right, so I believe he will think twice before opening hostilities with churches. All available evidence is that Trump doesn’t even think once about most of the things he does but in this case I don’t know what his motivation would be. He’s generally quite amenable to ‘Big Business’, and despite their ostensible non-profit status, organized religion are [definitely](https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/mormon-church-stock-portfolio-top-10-holdings-ensign-peak-advisors-2023-2) [in that](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/10/how-much-money-does-catholic-church-have/) [category](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_religious_organizations). > [@Dinsdale](#): > > I am not persuaded as to why churches ought to enjoy tax free status. It is as simple as that. The basic rationale is that churches should have a tax-exempt status on the basis that they are charitable organizations that uniquely promote the public welfare and upstanding social values. If you can say that in 2025 with a straight face, _you_ deserve a tax break. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/22 "2025-01-27T20:49:26Z")
Many churches, even smaller ones, have endowments/investments that produce funding. There is also the question of real estate taxes, which has long been an issue with the Catholic Church in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/23 "2025-01-27T20:50:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Most church income is gifts, which are tax exempt. And they dont make a profit, and taxes are calculated on profits. So other than the fact they’d have to file a different tax form, it wouldnt make a HUGE amount of different. I think the big issue would be the property tax exemption. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/24 "2025-01-27T20:57:54Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I am not persuaded as to why churches ought to enjoy tax free status. It is as simple as that. How about Schools? Scouting? The Sierra Club? There are nearly 2 million non-profit orgs in the USA. In any case, there would be no taxes collected. One reason is the 1st Ad- and remember- “the power to tax is the power to destroy”. (Chief Justice John Marshall, it seems). > **[What If We Taxed Churches?](https://taxfoundation.org/blog/church-taxes/)** > > “If churches paid taxes,” runs a popular claim on social media (hashtag #taxthechurches), “everyone would only have to pay 3 percent taxes.” Whether spurred by a belief that government is improperly favoring religious institutions, an antipathy to... _Churches, synagogues, and mosques are, by definition, nonprofit entities, and nonprofits are not taxed on their net income (as for-profit entities are) for a rather simple reason: they don’t have net income. While a church may have income in excess of expenditures in any given year, it has no owners or shareholders to benefit from increases in the valu_e of the entity, to receive dividends, or otherwise to profit from the church’s income stream._… The notion that taxing churches would raise substantial federal revenue is wildly inaccurate, even neglecting the incoherence of imposing income taxes on a nonprofit organization. Clergy pay income and payroll taxes just like everyone else, and the local property [tax exemption](https://taxfoundation.org/tax-basics/tax-exemption/), while meaningful, is available to all nonprofits._ > [@Procrustus](#): > > I think the big issue would be the property tax exemption. That isnt Federal, that is State by state . IIRC all states have that exemption. This isnt up to trump. > [@WreckingCrew](#): > > There is also the question of real estate taxes, which has long been an issue with the Catholic Church in particular. Can you exempt other non-profits but excludes churches? In any case, the amount generated- as a %- would be 2% or so. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/25 "2025-01-27T21:05:05Z")
Can we not talk about this very general topic in this somewhat specific thread, please? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/26 "2025-01-27T21:13:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Can you exempt other non-profits but excludes churches? Yes. You would have the IRS regulations alter the definition of 501c3 charitable organizations to not include the word “religious”. Despite the protests in this thread and the general misunderstanding of the concept of “non-profit”, the IRS would have a difficult time justifying how many churches in this country don’t qualify under _other_ aspects of the regulations, such as “charitable”. Edit: sorry @Czarcasm - I’ll bow out as well ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/27 "2025-01-27T21:16:57Z")
Didn’t Trump say he was going to send 88,000 IRS agents to patrol the border? Who’s going to do the work of examining churches to remove their exemptions? > **[Donald Trump issues major threat to nearly 90,000 IRS agents](https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-issues-major-threat-nearly-90000-irs-agents-2020959)** > > Trump has threatened to fire thousands of IRS agents—or relocate them to the United States-Mexico border. OK, that was mere gibberish at a rally. Those agents don’t exist yet, and only a tiny fraction of IRS agents are enforcement officers who carry guns. The OPs question is not much clearer. Presumably, it was at least partly triggered by the “woke” bishop who delivered a “woke” sermon to his face after the Inauguration. Trump the Retaliator would love to remove her church’s tax exemption, no doubt. What would that mean more broadly? Examine church by church to see if they are preaching “woke” topics or worse, helping the poor, immigrants, homeless, gays, trans, minorities, and women? That’s a process that would last longer than Trump’s term. Here’s an example of a termination letter. > **[IRS Revokes Organization's Exempt Status | Tax Notes](https://www.taxnotes.com/research/federal/irs-private-rulings/letter-rulings-technical-advice/irs-revokes-organizations-exempt-status/1kqrc)** > > The IRS revoked the section 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status of an organization that failed to establish that it operated exclusively for exempt purposes and ruled that It’s dated April 15, 2015. The last date for filing a petition with the tax court is 7/15/2015. The release date of the memorandum is 2/26/2016. The memo also lists three courts that the church can petition. The process will clog the courts and sail on forever. Doesn’t matter, you might respond. Getting his enemies tied up in expensive legal battles is Trump’s MO. Making them dance would feed Trump’s ego and make points with his base. One can’t ever discount that with Trump. Still, going after churches is dangerous. Doing so would emphasize that Trump has never set foot in a church except at metaphorical gunpoint. More importantly, churches have fervent memberships who would rise up at any such actions. Action might cause the entire denomination to panic. All denominations have members that are Trump supporters. The potential for huge losses is higher than for any small gains. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/28 "2025-01-27T21:29:25Z")
I will take a (slightly) contrarian view. IMO _any_ question of the form “Is [some feature of the _status quo_] in any danger?” must be answered with “Yes” as long as we have a Calvinball-based regime instead of a conventional presidential administration. They are not all-powerful. But they are loose cannons that could attempt to do anything, no matter how quixotic to their own interests. Further, the law of unintended consequences looms extra large when big power is vested in people who don’t think about consequences much at all before acting. Trying to apply this wider rubric to this thread … The OP’s initial question is oddly ill-framed, or at least oddly underspecified. IMO there are many ways trump could try to play both sides of this issue, sticking it to some churches / religious bodies while elevating others. Both in loudly shouted words and in quietly done deeds. I don’t know how much more can be said; IMO trying to handicap the likelihood of any given play coming up in Calvinball is pretty much an exercise in futility. “Wait for [whatever] to actually happen and _then_ react” is my motto going forward. trump’s approach to governance can be likened to the Gish Gallop in debate where the goal is to create so many different controversies & distractions that the real work of subornment can proceed under the cover of all the noise and fireworks, much of which will eventually be seen to have signified nothing. While the actual (usually destructive) actions slip past largely unnoticed. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/29 "2025-01-27T22:03:20Z")
I won’t divert this any further besides saying you are grossly underestimating the amount of money involved when it comes to some churches. I just looked up my local Catholic diocese. The Diocese of Providence closed out FY 2023 on a strong positive note, with its investments producing a return of 11 percent for the year ending June 30, 2023. According to the annual audit report of its finances, diocesan investments were up nearly $20 million over FY 2022, at $219,278,482 for FY 2023. [https://www.thericatholic.com/stories/audit-report-shows-diocese-of-providence-ended-fiscal-year-2023-on-a-positive-financial-note,14245#:~:text=PROVIDENCE%20%E2%80%94%20The%20Diocese%20of%20Providence,at%20%24219%2C278%2C482%20for%20FY%202023.](https://www.thericatholic.com/stories/audit-report-shows-diocese-of-providence-ended-fiscal-year-2023-on-a-positive-financial-note,14245#:~:text=PROVIDENCE%20%E2%80%94%20The%20Diocese%20of%20Providence,at%20%24219%2C278%2C482%20for%20FY%202023.) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/30 "2025-01-27T22:17:25Z")
Absolutely, all of this. I normally don’t even bother to participate in what will Trump do threads because of exactly this. Chaos outcomes are inherently unpredictable from inputs. The only reason I came in is the title. I’m another who has been against the religious tax exemption for decades. It’s outrageous in a country that has - really, has - a separation of church and state. Not that there’s any value to debating it in our world or any foreseeable one. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/31 "2025-01-27T22:22:17Z")
_Normally_ I’d say no; the IRS has always leaned over backwards to avoid taxing churches including ones that brazenly violate the rules that are supposed to justify the excepting. Something many right wing churches do quite openly as a show of power. But Trump is such a loose cannon that it’s actually possible he’ll decide to go after them for some random reason. It wouldn’t be the first bunch of supporters he’s screwed over. > [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Why would they be? I don’t think Trump has any religious beliefs, but he’s not going to alienate a large part of his support base. Oh, Trump’s quite religious. He’s seen the face of God after all; every time he looks in a mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/32 "2025-01-27T22:26:23Z")
There is always the possibility that he/they will be selectively going after those that oppose their official policies and leave the right-wing church groups alone. I don’t see this as an “all or nothing” situation. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/33 "2025-01-27T22:29:26Z")
In case it was unclear, I was not suggesting that I believed this would happen. Just expressing my personal opinion. And, as many have observed, non-profit certainly does not necessarily mean charitable or non-wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/34 "2025-01-27T22:39:36Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Didn’t Trump say he was going to send 88,000 IRS agents to patrol the border? Who’s going to do the work of examining churches to remove their exemptions? How many does it take to examine [18 churches in particular?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Episcopal_churches_in_Washington,_D.C.) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/35 "2025-01-27T22:42:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Calvinball-based regime I love this phrase. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/36 "2025-01-27T23:14:26Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > Why would they be? I don’t think Trump has any religious beliefs, but he’s not going to alienate a large part of his support base. That assumes Trump is thinking rationally, still needs his base, and can think ahead. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/37 "2025-01-27T23:19:30Z")
Overall, probably not, but if a religious entity is taking stands on candidates, or issues, they should. Some independent churches (Greg Locke’s controversial facility is probably the best known) have simply not become a 501(c)3 just so they can say anything they want. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/38 "2025-01-27T23:20:51Z")
He’s his own religion. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/39 "2025-01-27T23:21:54Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > still needs his base, This is a critical point lots of oeople overlook. No matter what, trump will never face re-election. Come 2028 he’ll either be dead, senile ~~in a home~~ held _incommunicado_, exiled, or President for Life. He has no use of MAGA voters except as a cheering section. . ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481/40 "2025-01-27T23:35:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > He has no use of MAGA voters except as a cheering section. A group that has shown itself uncritical to the point he (probably accurately) feels he can basically ignore the interests of since they’ll ignore or rationalize just about anything he does that hurts them and just keep cheering. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-church-tax-status-in-any-danger/1013481.md?page=3)