# Is "Citizen Kane" always going to be "The Greatest American Movie"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 27, 2007, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665 "2007-06-27T18:30:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/61 "2007-07-02T01:31:56Z")
Didn’t **Dr. Strangelove** and **2001** come out of the UK? Shepperton or Pinewood or some such? ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/62 "2007-07-02T02:03:59Z")
[QUOTE=mack] Didn’t **Dr. Strangelove** and **2001** come out of the UK? Shepperton or Pinewood or some such? [/QUOTE] The mind of the director was all American. It’s just that Kubrick \*really \*did not want to be bothered and so he moved to the UK. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/63 "2007-07-02T02:05:23Z")
I’d vote for American Splendor. That’s a great auld film. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/64 "2007-07-02T11:58:09Z")
Walloon writes: \> Such as . . . which polls? Well, for instance, the more-or-less standard poll of critics is the _Sight and Sound_ poll taken every ten years. Here’s the 2002 results for critics: > **[The 100 Greatest Films of All Time](https://www.bfi.org.uk/sight-and-sound/polls/greatest-films-all-time-2012)** > > In our biggest ever poll in 2012, 846 critics, programmers and curators nominated ten best movies ever made – and the results gave us a new top film, ending the 50-year reign of Citizen Kane. _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ (as a single unit) have moved up to 4th. Here’s the 1992 results for critics: [http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/history/1992.html](http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/history/1992.html) So in 1992, they were 6th and 9th (as separate films). Here’s the 1982 results for critics: [http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/history/1982.html](http://www.bfi.org.uk/sightandsound/topten/history/1982.html) They weren’t even in the ten ten in that poll. Here’s the 2002 poll for directors: > **[The 100 Greatest Films of All Time](https://www.bfi.org.uk/sight-and-sound/polls/greatest-films-all-time-2012)** > > In our biggest ever poll in 2012, 846 critics, programmers and curators nominated ten best movies ever made – and the results gave us a new top film, ending the 50-year reign of Citizen Kane. _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ (as a unit) are 2nd. On the IMDb poll: [http://www.imdb.com/chart/top](http://www.imdb.com/chart/top) _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ are 1st and 3rd, while _Citizen Kane_ is 23rd. On this poll: > **[The Best Movies of All Time by Rank - Films 101](https://www.films101.com/filmsr.htm)** > > All Films101 Films, picked by critics and filmmakers, sorted by rank _Citizen Kane_ is 1st and _The Godfather_ is 6th. (\_The Godfather Part II is 39th.) Note that _The Godfather_ is the newest film in the top ten. This poll is an average of a lot of critical choices. The sources for the poll are given on the website. _Citizen Kane_, a 1941 film, wasn’t even in the top ten in the 1962 _Sight and Sound_ poll. It only became the number one film on the critics’ poll in 1972. It didn’t really become a critics’ favorite until the 1960’s, so it can often take several decades for a film to rise in the estimation of critics. That’s what critics are supposed to do - take a long-term view of their art form. I suspect that for a lot of critics, _The Godfather_ is still a relatively recent film. For me, it’s a film that came out when I was in college and not a “classic” film at all. It appears to me then that _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ are still rising in the estimation of critics. That’s why I am predicting that in the next ten years they will pass _Citizen Kane_ to be considered the top film of all time. Please note that this is a _prediction_. I’m not psychic. I’m merely looking at trends and predicting which ones will continue. If you predict otherwise, fine. You have as much right as me to make a prediction. Since every time a statement like this is made, somebody feels they have to misinterpret it and insult the poster who made the statement, let me make the following notes: I am making no personal claims about which film is better. I am making no claims about which poll is the best. If you have examples of other polls of critics, filmmakers, or filmviewers, please give them. Please spare me your snide insults about my taste in films or in polls. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/65 "2007-07-02T12:56:28Z")
My point being that “has either already passed” or “is very close to passing it on most polls” means that in only one poll, the dubious IMDb list, which resembles no critic’s poll, is the “already passed” true. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2007, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/66 "2007-07-02T13:25:34Z")
Film viewers of today are critics of tomorrow. (And, in any case, I didn’t say that I was only talking about polls of critics in my first post.) My prediction takes in account the fact that in the eyes of film viewers, _The Godfather_ and _The Godfather Part II_ have already passed _Citizen Kane_. Do you know of other polls of critics than the ones that I cited? Here’s another poll: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI’s\_100\_Years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFI's_100_Years)…_100\_Movies_(10th\_Anniversary\_Edition) This is a survey of filmmakers and critics. _The Godfather_ has moved up from 3rd to 2nd in the past ten years. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2007, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/67 "2007-07-03T08:15:14Z")
[QUOTE=Cicero] As has been mentioned, the cast were virtually unknown. I love the movie, but apart from Orson Welles and Joseph Cotten, I couldn’t name any others. [/QUOTE] She may not have been known before, but Ruth Warrick, who played Kane’s first wife, was on All My Children for years and years and years. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/68 "2007-07-04T04:06:46Z")
Roger Ebert has a great essay on this subject [here.](http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070621/COMMENTARY/706210301) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/69 "2007-07-04T05:26:33Z")
So, uh… How DID anyone know what Kane’s last word was if he died alone, and no one was around to hear it? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/70 "2007-07-04T08:35:12Z")
We don’t know if he was alone. Someone else may have been in the room before the nurse entered. I suspect that oily caretaker [Raymond](http://www.uib.no/herrmann/articles/smith/stewart/) was hiding in the shadows, waiting for Kane to die. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665/71 "2007-07-04T08:47:47Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Roger Ebert has a great essay on this subject [here.](http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070621/COMMENTARY/706210301) [/QUOTE] Ebert predicted in the 1980s that the lack of Ingmar Bergman on the 1982 S&S list was surely just a blip, and he would be back in high style in the 1992 list. He was wrong. As the OP is wrong about Citizen Kane. Just as in a similar thread about the legacy of Star Wars, it is a piece whose time will pass, just as have most of the others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-citizen-kane-always-going-to-be-the-greatest-american-movie/409665.md?page=3)