# Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071 "2014-01-17T16:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/401 "2014-02-01T20:33:32Z")
Are you conceding my point J.Mace that Morsi for about a year was the head of state who did not have legitimate effective control over his nation’s military? I see you dodged having a response to my question about this I see. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/402 "2014-02-01T20:50:50Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Are you conceding my point J.Mace that Morsi for about a year was the head of state who did not have legitimate effective control over his nation’s military? > > I see you dodged having a response to my question about this I see. Morsi didn’t have effective control of the military because the constitution didn’t allow it. You make it sound as if this was some failure on his part. Then you go and make up yet another “rule” (that only you believe in) about a president not being democratically elected if he doesn’t control the military. So, no I don’t accept that a president who was democratically elected wasn’t democratically elected just because you made up something in order to defend an indefensible position. And, the newly elected president (assuming elections do take place) also will not have control over the military for the same reason. But that won’t make him not “democratically elected”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/403 "2014-02-01T21:02:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You do realize that the new constitution still maintains the clause where the military, not the president, appoints the defense minister, don’t you? So, whoever is elected president in the next election will not be “democratically elected”, right? Apparently you agree that Morsi was democratically elected but never gained control of the military as is normal for most democratically elected heads of state if not all. Is that correct? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/404 "2014-02-01T21:09:44Z")
I guess most of us have not been following the [news very closely.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/13/congress-to-give-egypt-1-5-billion-in-aid.html) > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I never said Obama is claiming anything. Obama had played it close to the best and I agree with that. He avoided calling it a coup and the aid never had to be suspended or cut as Rand Paul and McCain called for. > [@](#): > > Jan 14, 2014. > > New legislation dropping on Monday will free the Obama administration to send money to Cairo after last year’s military coup put a freeze on the cash. > > \ > > Congress would allow Obama to give the Egyptian government $250 million in economic support. Also, Obama could give the Egyptian military $1.3 billion in two installments: $975 million after Egypt holds its constitutional referendum and $576.8 million after presidential and parliamentary elections. > > \ > > Experts also point out that the new legislative language would override the existing law that prevents the U.S. from funding any military that has perpetrated a coup. Although the Obama administration decided not to say whether it believed Morsi’s overthrow was a coup, they have quietly followed the law and lobbied key congressional offices for legislative relief that would allow them to resume to flow of aid to Egypt. > > \ > > In October, the administration announced a partial suspension of Egypt aid and said it would not deliver planes, tanks, and missiles to the Egyptian military pending actual progress in the areas of democracy, human rights, and respect for the rule of law. Good for Obama. It looks like he was at least attempting to follow the law afterall. And it looks like Obama was in agreement with McCain et al. I’m sure **NFBW** will now tell us that Obama was absolutely right in doing what he had early said Obama shouldn’t do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/405 "2014-02-01T21:13:52Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Apparently you agree that Morsi was democratically elected but never gained control of the military as is normal for most democratically elected heads of state if not all. Is that correct? No, that is not correct. There is no requirement, except the one you made up, that a democratically elected president has to have full control of the military. And Morsi didn’t “gain” control of the military because it was impossible to do so under the constitution. I didn’t “gain” control of their military either. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/406 "2014-02-01T21:18:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I have not said the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The leader that won the election was not aligned with the revolutionary vision and made false promises about moderation to win. Those lies negated the validity of the first election. I guess, technically word-for-word, ‘The leader’ lied and not ‘Morsi’ and ‘negated the validity’ is not ‘invalid’. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/407 "2014-02-01T21:33:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You do realize that the new constitution still maintains the clause where the military, not the president, appoints the defense minister, don’t you? So, whoever is elected president in the next election will not be “democratically elected”, right? Still waiting for an answer to this one. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/408 "2014-02-01T21:59:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Morsi didn’t have effective control of the military because the constitution didn’t allow it. You make it sound as if this was some failure on his part. . I’m not making it sound as if that was Morsi’s failure. You are in error again. Morsi’s failure/misstep was to attempt to put Islamists in the military instead of working with the more moderates in the military leadership. My point has been that to be a head of state of a duly elected government and not have full and complete authority over the military and then be ousted by the military, makes that military take/over to be more of a constitutional act than a military coup. It’s still a coup but it is an uncommon version of a coup. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/409 "2014-02-01T22:06:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, that is not correct. There is no requirement, except the one you made up, that a democratically elected president has to have full control of the military. And Morsi didn’t “gain” control of the military because it was impossible to do so under the constitution. I didn’t “gain” control of their military either. Simple question. Dodge of an answer. The question is…was Morsi a democratically elected head of state who did not control the military as is normal for most democratically elected heads of state. And your answer is no that is not correct. Please clarify? Here’s a clue to why your reply is silly. I did not claim that it was a requirement / I said it was normal. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/410 "2014-02-01T22:08:36Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’m not making it sound as if that was Morsi’s failure. You are in error again. Morsi’s failure/misstep was to attempt to put Islamists in the military instead of working with the more moderates in the military leadership. “Did not gain” is a failure, to anyone who speaks English normally. I’m not in error. You’re just trying, yet again, to change the plain meaning of words to suit your purpose. > [@](#): > > My point has been that to be a head of state of a duly elected government and not have full and complete authority over the military and then be ousted by the military, makes that military take/over to be more of a constitutional act than a military coup. Can you quote the part of the constitution that allow the military to take over the civilian branch of the government? > [@](#): > > It’s still a coup but it is an uncommon version of a coup. There is nothing uncommonly uncouplike for the military to oust a sitting president. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/411 "2014-02-01T22:10:25Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I guess, technically word-for-word, ‘The leader’ lied and not ‘Morsi’ and ‘negated the validity’ is not ‘invalid’. Cite the full context of my post - and will point out your error. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/412 "2014-02-01T22:13:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Simple question. Dodge of an answer. The question is…was Morsi a democratically elected head of state who did not control the military as is normal for most democratically elected heads of state. You’re way behind on answering my question, so no more until you do so. ETA: Never mind, I’m not interested in your answer anyway. I don’t accept that it’s “normal” anymore than it’s “normal” for a president to be male. You can keep up this silly game and the answer is always going to be the same. Your made up rules mean nothing to anyone except you. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/413 "2014-02-01T22:14:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess most of us have not been following the [news very closely.](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/13/congress-to-give-egypt-1-5-billion-in-aid.html) > > Good for Obama. It looks like he was at least attempting to follow the law afterall. > > And it looks like Obama was in agreement with McCain et al. Good for Obama - he is not breaking the law the way some would have him do. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/414 "2014-02-01T22:20:12Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Cite the full context of my post - and will point out your error. There is no error. You have been caught yet again in contradicting yourself. I never viewed it as a coup/I always viewed it as a coup, lies negate the validity of an election/lies don’t make an election invalid, military coups are democracy in action, rigged votes are legitimate/rigged votes aren’t legitimate, locking people up for campaigning is democracy in action, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/415 "2014-02-01T22:21:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “Did not gain” is a failure, to anyone who speaks English normally. No it’s not a failure. I speak normal English. You are silly. Anyway I told you what Morsi’s failure was. It was trying to put Islamists in control of the military. So his failure was to try to gain control of the military for the very wrong reasons. And according to you he was not ever going to get it. So if you are correct then Morsi failed to understand his own constitution. You certainly blew this one. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/416 "2014-02-01T22:26:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not just you. He does that to almost everyone. When you’re just making stuff up, there’s no telling when some new tidbit will pop into your head. I guess I’ve lacked the fortitude to keep pushing the boulder up the hill knowing it’s just going to roll down again and try to engage him and hadn’t noticed he does it to everyone. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I reply to you repeatedly because you can’t get my messages right and then you disappear just like now. You do know that this is a message board, right? If I haven’t replied to you inside an hour that doesn’t mean I’ve dissapeared. Responding to the same post more than once really makes it look like you’re pulling things together on the fly, especially when you do it repeatedly. > [@](#): > > I have not said the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes. Yeah, you did. Just like you tried to hand wave away that there was a military coup. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/417 "2014-02-01T22:31:29Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > IYeah, you did. Just like you tried to hand wave away that there was a military coup. It was a coup that wasn’t a coup that was an uncommon version of coup. It’s going to be whatever he needs it to be at any given time, depending on what supports his preconceived ideas. And if it’s a coup one day, and not a coup the next, then you don’t get his point. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/418 "2014-02-01T22:36:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There is no error. You have been caught yet again in contradicting yourself. I never viewed it as a coup/I always viewed it as a coup, lies negate the validity of an election/lies don’t make an election invalid, military coups are democracy in action, rigged votes are legitimate/rigged votes aren’t legitimate, locking people up for campaigning is democracy in action, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. No. You are ignoring the full post. One part of a paragraph that you cite is an explanation as to why I do not view the coup to apply literally and legally in the context of the US law that’s been discussed. That does negate my view that what happened is a military coup as I stated in the same post. Your refusal to acknowledge the full context of my post is evidence that your reading of my posts suffer a consistent lack of comprehension that I can do nothing to help straighten you out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/419 "2014-02-01T22:38:49Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your refusal to acknowledge the full context of my post is evidence that your reading of my posts suffer a consistent lack of comprehension that I can do nothing to help straighten you out. Have you ever noticed that everyone in almost every thread you participate in has a “consistent lack of comprehension” except for you? That’s an amazing coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/420 "2014-02-01T22:49:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Yeah, you did. Just like you tried to hand wave away that there was a military coup. . You have no cite for either one. And that is part of disappearing. You reply but you do not engage. You just repeat the initial ill-informed snippets you pick up in the first place and then go away permanently having never gotten deeper the a snip here and a snip there. US Aid is flowing to General Sisi’s Army as we speak. What law or legal definition did I or Obama hand wave away about a military coup. Do you have no answer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=22)