# Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071 "2014-01-17T16:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/421 "2014-02-01T22:54:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Have you ever noticed that everyone in almost every thread you participate in has a “consistent lack of comprehension” except for you? That’s an amazing coincidence. I can read. It is obvious that Shodan cites half a dozen words out of probably a hundred and totally ignores 94 of them. That is not conducive to comprehension or making a valid argument. If you think it is explain how so? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/422 "2014-02-01T23:07:10Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > . > > You have no cite for either one. And that is part of disappearing. You reply but you do not engage. You just repeat the initial ill-informed snippets you pick up in the first place and then go away permanently having never gotten deeper the a snip here and a snip there. > > US Aid is flowing to General Sisi’s Army as we speak. What law or legal definition did I or Obama hand wave away about a military coup. > > Do you have no answer? No one is going to prove the same thing to you over and over again. No one wants to repeat cites that you ignore, and then ask for again. The proof has been given. Everyone except you accepts it. You are, quite simply, wrong. However, you do have an uncanny ability to unite posters against you from all across the political spectrum-- from the most liberal to the most conservative. That is quite a feat! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/423 "2014-02-01T23:18:03Z")
Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW I do not ‘now’ agree that what happened to Morsi was a coup because I have never argued that it was not a coup. Shodan changed my words from ‘never argued’ that It was not coup to ‘never viewed’ that it was not a coup. Where I said I didn’t view it as a coup it was in the context of applying that law. That is not arguing that it was never a coup. That is arguing a view that the term military coup may not apply to that law on US aid. So where have I argued that it was not coup since you wont accept the context of my view that it was not necessary to call it a coup in the legal context of US aid law. I am not sure if Obama ever called it a coup anyway because in the end it didnt matter anyway. I’m just wondering why Shodan and others think it is proper to drop context from anyone’s comments on a forum called great debates. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/424 "2014-02-01T23:36:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No one is going to prove the same thing to you over and over again. No one wants to repeat cites that you ignore, and then ask for again. The proof has been given. Everyone except you accepts it. You have No cites … You have No proof… That I tried to hand wave away that there was a military coup. I re-posted my comment where I said it ‘was a military coup’ and you have the audacity to tell me that I didn’t write that. I cited my own post. And then you tell me that cites I have been posted that prove I tried to hand wave away that there was military coup. I asked specifically for a cite where I said that. No one can produce it. Now you expect me to believe that you posted it. I’ll say it again as I told Shodan. I have never argued that there was no military coup in Egypt that ousted Morsi. Having a bunch of silly posters unite in making the same errors does not negate all their errors. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/425 "2014-02-01T23:43:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It was a coup that wasn’t a coup that was an uncommon version of coup. If you think I said that - cite it and respond to it. I have never argued that it was not a coup, so you are in error again. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/426 "2014-02-02T00:12:36Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > I guess I’ve lacked the fortitude to keep pushing the boulder up the hill knowing it’s just going to roll down again and try to engage him and hadn’t noticed he does it to everyone. Does what to everyone? Do you have a specific example? And when have you try to Engage me. Jumping in - saying what is what with no backup is not - engaging - it’s I’m here - I’m right - you are wrong - I’m gone. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/427 "2014-02-02T00:40:02Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Having a bunch of silly posters unite in making the same errors does not **negate** all their errors. [my bold] You’ve used that word before. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I’m just wondering why Shodan and others think it is proper to drop context from anyone’s comments on a forum called great debates. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Cite the full context of my post - and will point out your error. OK. Here’s your context and the posts in full: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Quote: > > Originally Posted by **Dissonance** > > > > Military coups are the antithesis of democracy. Why wasn’t your advice to the people of Egypt to sit down and STFU since they had a chance to vote and had voted in Morsi in free and fair elections? In functioning democracies this gets fixed at the next election, not by men in tanks telling the sitting president he’s being removed from office. > > > > I see, so the army needed to destroy the democracy in order to save it. > > No the Egyption Army did not destroy democracy. There was a first election after forty years of dictatorship, but no stable or effective democracy had been in place. The Army negated an election that followed a revolution that resulted in a new leader that was not a leader of the revolution. The army did not negate democracy, they negated an election. \*\*The leader that won the election was not aligned with the revolutionary vision and made false promises about moderation to win. Those lies negated the validity of the first election. \*\* > > I don’t agree with all that Marmot Lover is telling us but his experience of what is going on inside Egypt matches the views of my friends and co-workers. M.Lover’s view that Morsi lied his way to victory is in line with my Egyptian friends views and its unanimous that Morsi and the MB had to be stopped and yes by outlawing MB activities. > > Egyptians should not be required to live with a liar as first president just so observers in more established democracies can be satisfied that a democracy came into being with all the proper norms of democracy in place and living up to more established democratic and human rights standards. And: > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by **Dissonance** > > Indeed, his case against Morsi’s election being valid has always been that Morsi lied to get votes, which of course makes every election in recorded history invalid.I reply to you repeatedly because you can’t get my messages right and then you disappear just like now. > > **I have not said the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes.** I am saying the revolution did not end when Morsi lied about his intent to be a moderate leader and have respect for the principles of the revolution and was elected, trusted, to carry that moderation forward into the very first freely elected government after thirty years of dictatorship under Mubarak. Morsi failed the election promises and he failed the revolution. > > That is my point that no one including you are willing to discuss. Instead you > focus with the silly posters on one snippet about politicians lying to get elected as if there is no difference in 2008 USA And 2012-13 revolutionary times in Egypt. > > If you disagree with the fact that millions of revolutionaries in Egypt were upset with Morsi’s significant and historically eventful bait and switch, then explain yourself. > > I don’t see a similarity in the usual rounds if political > Exaggerations in our elections to be as drastically dangerous to democracy as Morsi’s deception was in Egypt. > > There is a connection to anti-Democratic terrorism and violence with Morsi that does not exist here. And would not be tolerated if it did. > > Our Democracy is established enough to impeach such a connection. Egypt’s democracy is in a state that could not impeach or wait as John Mace wants. They did what they could and now the revolution continues until it gets done right. [my bolding] Saying the military was justified in negating the election and Morsi failed the revolution by lying does not negate the fact that you have demonstrably contradicted yourself. You have said _ **X** _ [That the election was not valid because Morsi lied–“The leader that won the election was not aligned with the revolutionary vision and made false promises about moderation to win. Those lies negated the validity of the first election.”] and then you say: I have not said _ **X** _. The posters here are **NotfooledbyX**. Go ahead and hand wave that no one has any comprehension about what you actually wrote. Let’s hear from all the posters who agree with **NotfooledbyW** that he did not say the election was invalid because Morsi lied. Or are you going to claim it doesn’t count because, while technically true, you did not use the exact words: “ **the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes.** ” but instead “ **The leader that won the election was not aligned with the revolutionary vision and made false promises about moderation to win. Those lies negated the validity of the first election.** ” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/428 "2014-02-02T00:50:20Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > If you think I said that - cite it and respond to it. > > I have never argued that it was not a coup, so you are in error again. You’re not fooling anyone. > [@NFBW](#): > > [I’ll go with what an Egyptian thinks about it:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16460991&postcount=54) > > > [@](#): > > > > This is a historical revolution and not a coup… ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/429 "2014-02-02T00:57:50Z")
Oops. I did make a misquote: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Dissonance** > Indeed, his case against Morsi’s election being valid has always been that Morsi lied to get votes, which of course makes every election in recorded history invalid.I reply to you repeatedly because you can’t get my messages right and then you disappear just like now. Should be: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Dissonance** > Indeed, his case against Morsi’s election being valid has always been that Morsi lied to get votes, which of course makes every election in recorded history invalid. And: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **NotfooledbyW** > I reply to you repeatedly because you can’t get my messages right and then you disappear just like now. > … Inserted quote boxes incorrectly. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/430 "2014-02-02T01:18:46Z")
I wrote and Dasmoocher bolded it in full context: “The leader that won the election was not aligned with the revolutionary vision and made false promises about moderation to win. Those lies negated the validity of the first election.” There I am saying the first free election was valid. And it was valid when it was held. The revolutionaries in Egypt did not know that Morsi was a liar until after Morsi began governing in sympathy not with the revolution but with Islamists, extremists and with terrorists. Then Dasmoocher cites this in context. “I have not said the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes” and the context is pretty much the same as I explain again above. There is no difference in both cites. In both cases the election itself was valid. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/431 "2014-02-02T01:28:49Z")
It doesn’t matter if the election was made “invalid” the day it was held or 1 year later. You said what you said-- that Morsi’s lies made the election invalid. That’s why you think the coup that was not a coup but was an unusual coup that was more like a constitutional act, was justified. Still waiting for you to cite the part of the constitution that says the military gets to take over. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/432 "2014-02-02T02:01:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I wrote and Dasmoocher bolded it in full context: “The leader that won the election was not aligned with the revolutionary vision and made false promises about moderation to win. Those lies negated the validity of the first election.” There I am saying the first free election was valid. And it was valid when it was held. The revolutionaries in Egypt did not know that Morsi was a liar until after Morsi began governing in sympathy not with the revolution but with Islamists, extremists and with terrorists. > > Then Dasmoocher cites this in context. “I have not said the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes” and the context is pretty much the same as I explain again above. There is no difference in both cites. In both cases the election itself was valid. And you wonder why people don’t follow your arguments: The election is valid. Then it is not because of Morsi’s lies. Then I never said the election was invalid because of Morsi’s lies. “Those lies negated the validity of the first election.” [These were Morsi’s lies, correct?] “I have not said the election was invalid because Morsi lied to get votes” “There is no difference in both cites. In both cases the election itself was valid.”–(Except, apparently, when lies negate the validity of the election.) Is this some bizarre parsing of your point that we should take “negated the validity” as _not_ meaning “invalid”? Or, the election is a specific event that occurred on a specific day when people voted (definition 1 below), and not the political choice of the voting into office of Morsi (definition 2 below)? **election** (plural elections) 1. A process of choosing a leader, members of parliament, councillors or other representatives by popular vote. 2. The choice of a leader or representative by popular vote. Let’s see who agrees with you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/433 "2014-02-02T02:42:04Z")
As much as I feel for the Egyptian people, and wish them the very best, the idea that Morsi, a member of **THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD** , wasn’t going to tilt the country in an Islamist direction is, well, laughable. I don’t care what he said during the election. It was _THE MUSLIM FREAKIN’ BROTHERHOOD!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/434 "2014-02-02T02:55:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As much as I feel for the Egyptian people, and wish them the very best, the idea that Morsi, a member of **THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD** , wasn’t going to tilt the country in an Islamist direction is, well, laughable. I don’t care what he said during the election. It was _THE MUSLIM FREAKIN’ BROTHERHOOD!!!_ But,…, but we’ve had people on this site who’ve insisted that the Muslim Brotherhood is no different than the Christian Democrats in Europe??? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/435 "2014-02-02T04:24:03Z")
This is rich. **NFBW** goes and resurrects the thread I quoted above, saying: > [@NFBW](#): > > J.Mace must have searched this thread trying to catch me saying that there was no military coup in Egypt last summer. He found one where an Egyptian was cited by me saying it was not a coup in her opinion. He “accidentally” leaves out the fact that he also said, per my quote “I’ll go with what an Egyptian says about it”. I suppose next he’s going to tell us that he didn’t actually "argue"t the point, but just mentioned it in passing. Perhaps we can get the name of this forum changed to “Things We Mention in Passing”. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/436 "2014-02-02T04:41:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re not fooling anyone. Here’s your big ‘not-find’ of a quote by me where I supposedly am arguing that there was no military coup: !!! Thread: Cutting off aid to Egypt is the law/ Post #54 07-10-2013, 07:30 PM by NotfooledbyW; Quote: Originally Posted by John Mace Very complicated. But, it also notes that Obama is the decider as to whether this is a coup or not, so it’s really up to him unless Congress writes a new law. NotfooledbyW: “I’ll go with what an Egyptian thinks about it:” Quote: This is a historical revolution and not a coup d’etat or protest movement or outraged uprising. It is a revolution that will continue until all of its goals are realized. Nawal El Saadawi is an internationally renowned Egyptian writer who’s writing has influenced five generations of women and men in Egypt and other Arab countries, and paved the way for dissidence, rebellion and revolution. For more than four decades she has suffered under Egyptian political and religious authorities, which has led to imprisonment, exile, death threats and court trials. Read More: [http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/peop...n-saadawi.html](http://www.juancole.com/2013/07/peop...n-saadawi.html). !!! It’s clear I was arguing against your point that Obama was the one to decide if it was a coup by telling you it was up to the Egyptians to decide. So I provided a view from an Egyptian revolutionary who holds an opinion that it was not a coup D’état. On this post I did not argue that it was not a coup D’état, I argued that my view is to let the Egyptians decide what they wish to call it. It’s their country, their lives, their freedoms and their revolution. But your silliness continues that I have argued somewhere that there was no coup D’état in Egypt last summer. I pointed out following this post that you can call it a coup D’état if you like. The revolutionary I cited chooses not to call it that but I clearly state at the time that it can be called a coup but the label does not really matter in the larger perspective. That is not in any way shape or form my argument that a coup D’état did not take place. And recently I have stated that it was technically a coup D’état which moves you further deeper into error. Why do so many here follow you down the path of error ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/437 "2014-02-02T06:11:50Z")
Ugh. You should have taken my advice and used the “mentioning in passing” excuse. That’s a lot better than the lame-o excuse you gave. You weren’t arguing it wasn’t a coup, you were arguing that you agreed with an Egyptian who said it wasn’t a coup. As hard is at might be to imagine, your posts are sinking to new low. > [@](#): > > Why do so many here follow you down the path of error The answer is obvious Everyone else is wrong, and you’re correct! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/438 "2014-02-02T06:56:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You weren’t arguing it wasn’t a coup, you were arguing that you agreed with an Egyptian who said it wasn’t a coup. There is no need for you to re-write my response. I stated a fact that is irrefutable. I did not argue that it was not a coup D’état. Your claim that I did argue that is a huge error on your part because it is not true. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/439 "2014-02-02T07:41:46Z")
Oh, I see. How can I have been so wrong? WHen you said you’d go with what an Egyptian said, it should have been obvious to all of us that you meant you don’t go with what an Egyptian said. Crystal clear, as always. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/440 "2014-02-02T09:36:13Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Could you provide a link that has words > Attached. Thank you. The jihadist is wearing the AQ headband. No words needed. Here he is in Syria with AQ flag waving behind his head. [![](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-63q6YmqdMiQ/UgYBDIXvQUI/AAAAAAAAAgI/d0h1bfXBz2k/s1600/mccain+with+rebels.jpg) ](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-63q6YmqdMiQ/UgYBDIXvQUI/AAAAAAAAAgI/d0h1bfXBz2k/s1600/mccain+with+rebels.jpg) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=23)