# Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071 "2014-01-17T16:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/501 "2014-02-02T19:29:14Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I am using the same definition of election. I am saying the election itself (if I have to add ‘process’ I will) was valid. It was valid because Morsi became President and was president for about a year. By then Morsi was acting different than promised and was perceived by millions as a threat to democracy, the economy and the goals of the revolution in general. Because of that threat Morsi was forced to step down and is under arrest. > > Let me ask you this. Is the valid election that Morsi won now guaranteeing that Morsi will be able to serve the full term that he was elected to serve? Your answer must be no. Is the election that Morsi won valid today? I say that election has been voided. It is meaningless. If you wish to claim that a voided, overturned election is valid that is fine. But don’t tell me that my summary is not correct. Your summary is not correct. Once again, you are torturing the English language to cover up mistakes you wish to hide in your previous posts. Now you are expecting us to believe there is a difference between “the election” and “the election itself”. When you find yourself having to re-explain yourself over and over again to multiple people, it’s to look in the mirror and ask yourself how you can improve your posting style. 'Cause your current stye ain’t working. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/502 "2014-02-02T19:34:03Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > The illiterate were told to circle a symbol not a name. They got a box of food and told to circle a camel or a bicycle or a sunshine or whatever. Most had never in their life been to an election. No one voted in Mubarak 30 years. Simple poor farmers were conned. Welcome to the world of democracy. As the saying goes, it’s is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. If you want to get only a certain type of result, then perhaps that system is not what you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/503 "2014-02-02T19:35:16Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > The USA were ignorant of the fact that the Egyptians are majority moderate and not MB and therefore would not allow an Ayatollah to change their religion and how they practice Islam and to go on Jihad with Hamas and US rebels in Syria and Libya etc. Since Egyptians are Sunnis not Shia your use “Ayatollah” a Shia concept that is completely alien to Sunni Islam(and largely seen as blasphemous or near blasphemous by many) is really odd. You might as well have said, “Egypt will not allow a Pope to change their religion.” ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/504 "2014-02-02T19:42:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No I don’t. Why would I? > > Anyway, could you please tell us what they say. > > Thank you. Your username is Arabic or didn’t you know. The headbands and flags are what AQ have been using for over 10 years. It has as I already said the shahada written on it. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/505 "2014-02-02T19:51:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since Egyptians are Sunnis not Shia your use “Ayatollah” a Shia concept that is completely alien to Sunni Islam(and largely seen as blasphemous or near blasphemous by many) is really odd. > > You might as well have said, “Egypt will not allow a Pope to change their religion.” What are you talking about?? 😕 I said clearly that MB leadership is like Ayatollah. The supreme leader that must be obeyed. Most of worlds Muslims are not MB or Shia therefore they do not follow a supreme leader. Most Egyptians are not MB so do not follow Badie. Egyptians mainly follow Azhar mufti but it is not compulsory. In fact when I think about it most Egyptians actually are quite free to follow what they like to believe. I do not follow anyone for example. No one leads me or influences me. It’s my choice to follow their thinkings or not. It’s not a problem. Egypt is not Iran or Saudi if you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/506 "2014-02-02T19:56:00Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Your username is Arabic or didn’t you know. Yes, I knew that. My RL name, Ali, is alway an Arab name. I was born in Iran. We don’t speak Arabic any more than do Pakistanis. Most of us have some training in being able to recite it, but my family left Iran when I was 2. I’m surprised you’d automatically assume I was an Arab since 90% of all Muslims aren’t. > [@](#): > > The headbands and flags are what AQ have been using for over 10 years. > It has as I already said the shahada written on it. Actually you said usually it’s the Shahada without specifying if it was. I was a bit surprised. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/507 "2014-02-02T20:01:49Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > What are you talking about?? 😕 > > I said clearly that MB leadership is like Ayatollah. The supreme leader that must be obeyed. > > Most of worlds Muslims are not MB or Shia therefore they do not follow a supreme leader. Most Egyptians are not MB so do not follow Badie. Egyptians mainly follow Azhar mufti but it is not compulsory. In fact when I think about it most Egyptians actually are quite free to follow what they like to believe. I do not follow anyone for example. No one leads me or influences me. It’s my choice to follow their thinkings or not. It’s not a problem. > Egypt is not Iran or Saudi if you think it is. You think the MB is “like Ayatollah”. That’s quite a bizarre statement and the equivalent saying the head of the Southern Baptist Church is “like the Pope”. Someone not to familiar with the Catholic Church or the Baptist Church might make such a comment, but I don’t think too many Baptists would. Similarly, I’ve never heard any practicing Muslim make such a statement. Are you a Copt? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/508 "2014-02-02T20:13:42Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > So, by using this logic, Nixon’s election was retroactively invalid because he was forced to step down and did not finish his term of office? Or, is Nixon’s election now _voided_–a new distinction from you now. At least he got to retire to California and protected from arrest by Ford’s pardon. I guess, we should have forced Bush Sr. out, too, because he broke his “No new taxes” pledge. C’mon, they’re _Republicans_. They must have been evil. > > “But don’t tell me that my summary is not correct.” > > I think you wouldn’t believe you’re incorrect about anything, even if the rest of the world sees things differently and told you so. No. You are abdolutely wrong. This is easy. Gerald Ford completed Nixon’s term. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/509 "2014-02-02T20:16:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, I knew that. My RL name, Ali, is alway an Arab name. I was born in Iran. We don’t speak Arabic any more than do Pakistanis. Most of us have some training in being able to recite it, but my family left Iran when I was 2. > > I’m surprised you’d automatically assume I was an Arab since 90% of all Muslims aren’t. > > Actually you said usually it’s the Shahada without specifying if it was. I was a bit surprised. Iranians speak Farsi but your username is Arabic so I assumed you were Arab. The photo of the AQ headband wearing jihadist I posted with Mc Cain has the shahada written on it. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/510 "2014-02-02T20:18:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > You think the MB is “like Ayatollah”. > > That’s quite a bizarre statement and the equivalent saying the head of the Southern Baptist Church is “like the Pope”. > > Someone not to familiar with the Catholic Church or the Baptist Church might make such a comment, but I don’t think too many Baptists would. > > Similarly, I’ve never heard any practicing Muslim make such a statement. > > Are you a Copt? No I did not say that MB is like Ayatollah. Read what I wrote again. Yes I am Copt. All Egyptians are Copts. Copt means Egyptian. If you mean am I christian copt then no I am Muslim ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/511 "2014-02-02T20:31:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Welcome to the world of democracy. As the saying goes, it’s is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried. If you want to get only a certain type of result, then perhaps that system is not what you are looking for. Egypt is going through a revolution - they do want to get to a certain result / it is one without Islamists curtailing freedom of religion among other things. The first round of elections did not work out to the revolution’s goals. You put functional elections like ours ahead of the revolutions goals. It’s their revolution and desire for democratic freedoms and human rights. The Islamists may have to learn democracy the hard wsy if they want to keep the rights. Morsi is learning the hard way. Or msybe he dies in jail and never learns. I believe they will get there without a civil war. The Islamist can’t buy fighters like the nay have bought votes. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/512 "2014-02-02T20:43:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Your summary is not correct. Once again, you are torturing the English language to cover up mistakes you wish to hide in your previous posts. Now you are expecting us to believe there is a difference between “the election” and “the election itself”. > > When you find yourself having to re-explain yourself over and over again to multiple people, it’s to look in the mirror and ask yourself how you can improve your posting style. 'Cause your current stye ain’t working. Your job as language cop was long ago lost since you have no concept of context and claim cites exist that don’t. Having the facts on my side has nothing to do with majority rule. That I am torturing English is old and tired excuse making. Yada yada yada. You have all worn that tactic out. You need some new material. My reply to Dasmoocher about Gerald Ford was spot on and in English Did you understand the point and what it did to Dasmooch’s big play? ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/513 "2014-02-02T20:43:46Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > No. You are abdolutely wrong. This is easy. Gerald Ford completed Nixon’s term. But you’re arguing Morsi’s election was not valid because Morsi didn’t finish his term and was forced from office. Did Nixon finish his term; was he forced from office? You claim you are using the word election correctly. The election happens before the term of office starts. You claim it is valid and then claim it is not valid. How is it both? Schrodinger’s Cat in a ballot box? But this is just academic. You have been caught contradicting yourself and everyone here knows it. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/514 "2014-02-02T20:53:33Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > That I am torturing English is old and tired excuse making. Yada yada yada. You have all worn that tactic out. Allow me to translate: I think I’m communicating clearly and if no one else understands my points, then everyone else does not understand English. [Sticks fingers in ears and says nada, nada, nada…] > [@](#): > > My reply to Dasmoocher about Gerald Ford was spot on and in English Did you understand the point and what it did to Dasmooch’s big play? Wow. I’m devastated. Yep, it’s sort of embarrassing. I imagine it must be as embarrassing as having been shown that your own statements contradict yourself, or, at least, your understanding of common words. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/515 "2014-02-02T20:58:58Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Your job as language cop was long ago lost since you have no concept of context and claim cites exist that don’t. This isn’t about being a cop. It’s about countering your factually incorrect posts. > [@](#): > > Having the facts on my side has nothing to do with majority rule. > > That I am torturing English is old and tired excuse making. Yada yada yada. You have all worn that tactic out. > > You need some new material. When you keep making the same mistakes over and over, you’re going to get the same corrections. It’s up to you to correct that. > [@](#): > > My reply to Dasmoocher about Gerald Ford was spot on and in English Did you understand the point and what it did to Dasmooch’s big play? I understood your point, and it’s wrong. **Dasmoocher** is correct. Once again you are making new rules up on the fly-- rules no on agrees to except you. That’s a consequence of your unwllingness to admit mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/516 "2014-02-02T21:06:47Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Egypt is going through a revolution - they do want to get to a certain result / it is one without Islamists curtailing freedom of religion among other things. The first round of elections did not work out to the revolution’s goals. > > You put functional elections like ours ahead of the revolutions goals. It’s their revolution and desire for democratic freedoms and human rights. The Islamists may have to learn democracy the hard wsy if they want to keep the rights. Morsi is learning the hard way. Or msybe he dies in jail and never learns. > > I believe they will get there without a civil war. The Islamist can’t buy fighters like the nay have bought votes. You act as though there is a hive mind in Egypt. There are competing goals among disparate groups, and the democratic process is how you work out those differences. If, that is, you want to be a democracy. If they don’t want Islamists running things, they shouldn’t vote for Islamists. There may not be a full-on civil war, but it’s silly to underestimate the Islamists. They don’t have to buy fighters-- the region is overflowing with volunteers. When you use heavy handed tactics to suppress the opposition and don’t want autocratic rule, you better prepare yourself for a long period of civil strife. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/517 "2014-02-02T21:41:03Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > how many of the polling stations was Carter Org in? let’s have some scientific data here. Perhaps you could read the report to which I linked. Put it this way - I think the Carter organization was in more polling places, and had a more nearly complete view of the election, than you did. So their word for it is worth more than yours. [QUOTE=NotfooledbyW] I am trying to build a bridge of understanding over issues such as that - you know - what we mean by certain terms and phrases. [/QUOTE] Is that what you call it? Perhaps it would help if you chose a meaning for a term, and then stuck with it. So don’t say “democracy” when you are talking about a military coup, don’t say that something is “invalid” when you say its validity has been negated, and don’t talk about the democratic process when you are discussing instances when the military throws its political opponents into jail. Failing that, you can continue as you are and tie yourself into knots and make your posts a laughingstock. You are making some progress in not reposting nonsense two and three times over. This has the advantage of your being ludicrously wrong only once. Keep up the good work - you will make it to coherence in no time! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/518 "2014-02-02T22:31:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I understood your point, and it’s wrong. **Dasmoocher** is correct. Nope not making up rules the point was Dadmoocher tried to lay an argument on the board comparing Nixon’s resignation to Morsi’s being a victim of a coup d’état. Dasmoocher’s argment failed because Nixon’s term went to completion without him. Nixon’s election therefore remained valid… because Ford finished the term. Not so Morsi… His election has been invalidaded null and void … terminated after about a year. You cannot present an argument as to why I am wrong and Dadmoocher is right. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/519 "2014-02-02T22:33:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Perhaps you could read the report to which I linked. > > Put it this way - I think the Carter organization was in more polling places, and had a more nearly complete view of the election, than you did. So their word for it is worth more than yours. > Is that what you call it? > > Perhaps it would help if you chose a meaning for a term, and then stuck with it. So don’t say “democracy” when you are talking about a military coup, don’t say that something is “invalid” when you say its validity has been negated, and don’t talk about the democratic process when you are discussing instances when the military throws its political opponents into jail. > > Failing that, you can continue as you are and tie yourself into knots and make your posts a laughingstock. You are making some progress in not reposting nonsense two and three times over. This has the advantage of your being ludicrously wrong only once. > > Keep up the good work - you will make it to coherence in no time! when you begin to grasp the necessity for context I’ll take some advise from you. Citing one or two lines out of twenty is not considering context on your part. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/520 "2014-02-02T22:46:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Nope not making up rules the point was Dadmoocher tried to lay an argument on the board comparing Nixon’s resignation to Morsi’s being a victim of a coup d’état. > Dasmoocher’s argment failed because Nixon’s term went to completion without him. Nixon’s election therefore remained valid… because Ford finished the term. Not so Morsi… His election has been invalidaded null and void … terminated after about a year. Cool story, bro. Got any more fiction for us? One question: Are you talking about “the election” or “the election itself”? I’m having a hard time keeping that straight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=27)