# Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071 "2014-01-17T16:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/821 "2014-02-14T09:45:25Z")

> [@CarnalK](#): > > OWNING slaves was good enough for our democracy. Would you forgive that too of this poor fledgling democracy? Sheesh. The overriding fact to youn argument’s reliance on the slavery issue right now is that I do not have to make that decision. Your ‘slave’ argument is useless since owning slaves is not practiced currently in Egypt. That you choose to argue slavery while ignoring the point about women and non-propertied males shows how weak your overall argument is. There are all the voting aged women in Egypt as well as an millions of males that do not own fifty acres of land that have the right to vote in Egypt but in our first half century at least of democracy - that group of citizenry could not. Do you have a counter argument on the basis of reality in Rgypt today or will you pass? ---

**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/822 "2014-02-14T12:58:21Z")

I wasn’t making a “slavery argument”, I was just wondering how far you will forgive anti democratic action. Since I don’t have to predict the future, I won’t. I simply think you are ridiculously over confident about you future predicting abilities. You can take that as a debate victory if you want to. ---

**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/823 "2014-02-14T13:07:03Z")

> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > Would it be right and fsir to give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours? Can you remind me when we had a coup in the US? I must have been sick the day that was covered in my history class. ---

**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/824 "2014-02-14T14:13:56Z")

Don’t you remember? It was the one that put Ford into office. Regards, Shodan ---

**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/825 "2014-02-14T18:06:53Z")

> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you remind me when we had a coup in the US? I must have been sick the day that was covered in my history class. The real question is if we “give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours” that amounts to between 80 years (for non-whites to vote) and 130 years (for women to vote). Is that the amount of time you are really talking about, **NotfooledbyW**? ---

**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/826 "2014-02-14T18:20:09Z")

> [@Shodan](#): > > Don’t you remember? It was the one that put Ford into office. > > Regards, > Shodan You’re being facetious. I hope. ---

**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/827 "2014-02-14T18:39:29Z")

\*\* Another nail in the coffin of Egyptian/US relations\*\* > [@](#): > > On February 12, Egyptian authorities detained a locally employed US Embassy staffer, an Egyptian. He was, according to the NY Times, acting as a liaison to the Muslim Brotherhood. Authorities in Egypt have yet to charge Mohamad Alaiba formally. > > Marie Harf, the US State Department spokesperson, did not deny the US’s involvement but confirmed that it is speaking to the Muslim Brotherhood. > > The United States does not – has not designated the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. We have been very clear in Egypt that we will work with all sides and all parties to help move an inclusive process forward. We’ve also repeatedly, both publicly and privately, called on the interim government to move forward in an inclusive manner. That means talking to all parties, bringing them into the process. We’re not saying what the future government should look like specifically other than that it should be inclusive. That, of course, includes the Muslim Brotherhood. We will continue talking to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as part of our broad outreach to the different parties and groups there. > > She continues, “Our folks that are on the ground there have been talking to the Muslim Brotherhood and other groups as well.” > > And here we come to the original query. What are the responsibilities an embassy undertakes in a host country, other than to promote its own country’s image and self? > \*\* > When the US liaises with the Muslim Brotherhood, a group designated a terrorist one by the Egyptian Government, and states this as a fact through its State Dept. spokesperson, the US is going against Egypt, the host country.\*\* It purposely and intentionally ignores Egypt’s supremacy over its land and decision making, endangers Egyptians, risks causing a national security blunder, and gets itself entrenched in matters that should not concern it. Clearly the US is not abiding to the rules of the land and not playing a politically correct game. > > The US gaffe would be similar to the Egyptian Embassy in Washington taking it upon itself to contact Al Qaeda in the US and then confessing to the fact that Egypt will continue to liaise with the “Islamic opposition.” Had such a farfetched scenario occurred, the US would’ve instantly called its ambassador back from Egypt, and bolted the Egyptian embassy in Washington, that is after it detains the US citizen whom Egypt had recruited to do the mediation deeming him a traitor. > > **The US State Department has no specific role to play in Egypt but to advise. It should not “continue to work with all sides and parties,” because it has not been asked to liaise or do just that. It is the US’s right to consider the Muslim Brotherhood a charitable and benevolent foundation if it so wishes but in the US not in Egypt, but as long as it is operating on Egyptian soil and under the Egyptian roof, it should obey and abide by the Egyptian terms and standards.** > > This leaves us with a dire question. So what exactly was the locally employed staffer doing? What kind of information was he providing the Muslim Brotherhood with? And is this discussion ultimately for the good of Egypt or the good of the Muslim Brotherhood—the group deemed a terrorist one by Egypt? > \*\* > One last matter: to recruit a local staffer who has no immunity in Egypt to fulfill its objective exposes the US’s underhanded style. Yes, US embassy staff is protected, but the Egyptian local is placed in a hazardous situation, risking his freedom for his employer. At the end of the day, the US will not be able to protect the man it has gotten to do its work for it.\*\* > > I hope the world will see this situation for what it truly is: **an embassy’s interference in the affairs of a host country**. In similar situations, this would be considered espionage. ---

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/828 "2014-02-14T18:41:09Z")

> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by NotfooledbyW: Would it be right and fair to give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours? \<“Cite” > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Can you remind me when we had a coup in the US? I must have been sick the day that was covered in my history class. > > . Could you tell us why you quoted my words as if to respond but then post a reply that has no relationship at all to the question I asked. Perhaps you were sick the days in grade school when they taught that the first US President was the top general of the Continental Army and then fortunately presided as the first term President without pushing an agenda to subvert/convert the Federal Government into a an enforcement agency of something akin to Islamic extremist Sharia law. Had Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Sam and John, etc had somehow witnessed (if Christian women could vote) some religious evangelical nut job win the first US election (that you said was no democracy) and override the principle of freedom of religion / then there may have been a coup. That would be fairly comparing the US to Egypt’s first revolutionary election. But what would it matter anyway since you said it was not democracy when scored of US Presidents were elected? ---

**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/829 "2014-02-14T18:42:30Z")

> [@CarnalK](#): > > The real question is \*\*if we “give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours” \*\*that amounts to between 80 years (for non-whites to vote) and 130 years (for women to vote). Is that the amount of time you are really talking about, **NotfooledbyW**? the unbelievable arrogance of Americans !! :rolleyes: who the hell cares about what amount of time you give us for anything!!! ---

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/830 "2014-02-14T18:53:35Z")

> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > You’re being facetious. > > I hope. He’s being wrong if he is referring to me. I never said there was a coup in the US. Shodan won’t debate me head on I guess. ---

**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/831 "2014-02-14T22:39:06Z")

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2014, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/832 "2014-02-14T22:52:46Z")

> [@CarnalK](#): > > The real question is if we “give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours” that amounts to between 80 years (for non-whites to vote) and 130 years (for women to vote). Is that the amount of time you are really talking about, **NotfooledbyW**? According to Mace then, we had no democracy in America for 130 years. So if the Egyptians get a democracy that satisfies Human Action’s standards as a minimum quicker than 130 years, then the Egyptians will have done it better than we did. There’s not much right about Anerican’s criticizing the Egytian’s method and timetable on their path from revolution to democracy is there? I hope they get it done right after the second revolt. I don’t think Egyptians will need as much time as we did and they won’t need a civil war. Good for them. They are a great nation and people. ---

**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/833 "2014-02-15T01:55:50Z")

> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > According to Mace then, we had no democracy in America for 130 years. > > So if the Egyptians get a democracy that satisfies Human Action’s standards as a minimum quicker than 130 years, then the Egyptians will have done it better than we did. There’s not much right about Anerican’s criticizing the Egytian’s method and timetable on their path from revolution to democracy is there? > > I hope they get it done right after the second revolt. I don’t think Egyptians will need as much time as we did and they won’t need a civil war. Well, they shouldn’t need as much time. There are a number of democracies in the world and lots of history now so it would be kind of idiotic to not learn from what’s gone before them. But all these comparisons to US democracy are kinda dumb, imho. Very likely they’ll have to be more like Turkey where, for the last 90 years, their courts can and will ban political parties they deem “anti-secular”. ---

**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/834 "2014-02-15T02:06:05Z")

> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > I But you are telling ne that for half a century after its beginning we had no democracy in the good ole US of A - the land of the free? > > When did America go from no democracy to having a democracy. A functional democracy in your mind? > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > According to Mace then, we had no democracy in America for 130 years. Are you talking to yourself? You ask me a question, and then you answer it. This is taken from the first post I quoted, above: > [@](#): > > Perhaps you think it should have emerged in perfect functional democracy condition as you expect it to happen in Egypt right now? No, I don’t “expect” anything. I’m just calling a spade a spade. When you have a coup, you don’t have democracy. The US never had any coups, so I’m not so sure why you are so eager to make the comparison. ---

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/835 "2014-02-15T02:26:21Z")

One needs to read the lead up to the final paragraph in this essay to get it. > [@](#): > > The events which since 2010-11 led to the overthrow of several antiquated regimes in the region, however, are indicators of a reawakening across the Arab world. Despite the slow pace and the setbacks, they are a sign that the peoples of the middle east and north Africa are imbued with a renewed sense of historical purpose after decades of repression. The heart of their movement is an end to arbitrary rule and _ **for a binding social contract to be put in place once and for all** _. This is the precondition of all democratic progress. [http://www.opendemocracy.net/foulath-hadid-mishana-hosseinioun/middle-east-long-term-view](http://www.opendemocracy.net/foulath-hadid-mishana-hosseinioun/middle-east-long-term-view) ---

**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/836 "2014-02-15T02:55:46Z")

Nothing says an end to “arbitrary rule” and a “binding social contract” like a military coup. ---

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/837 "2014-02-15T03:08:22Z")

(John Mace 02-13-2014 12:18 PM} Alternatively, you could admit you misspoke once in awhile instead of pretending what you wrote wasn’t what you wrote. \<“Cite” When you show me ‘explicitly’ where you think I misspoke I would be quite happy to admit I misspoke if that is what is written here shows. And let’s be clear, ‘explicitly’ is not citing a third party cited by me when I say it is up to that third party directly involved in the situation who gets to decide… not me. ---

**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/838 "2014-02-15T03:13:00Z")

That’s already been done by me and others so many times in this thread it’s not funny. Literally, not funny. Any further exploration of that topic is best suited to the Pit thread devoted specifically to you. ---

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/839 "2014-02-15T04:41:17Z")

Perhaps Mace will be able to see that Carnalk and I were addressing the post-Morsi-coup election in Egypt. (-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 04:34 PM) You are wrong about several things but the primary _ **one is that the military is doing the same thing they have always done. Can you explain why you see it that way?** _ \>“Cite” (-CarnalK 02-13-2014 04:45 PM) Mainly that they not going to allow any Islamist candidates - banning the MB just like they did in the early 50’s. \>“Cite” (-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 06:28 PM) The victors of the American Revolution set up the new Constitution but did not find it necessary to dictate to the states who had the ‘right’ to vote. Surely you are aware of this: “Cite”\>\> .Originally, the U.S. Constitution did not define who could vote and was simply built around a concept of rights of “person”, with voting not explicitly included in the rights. When the country was founded, in most states, only non-Negro men with real property-usually of at least 50 acres- (land) or sufficient wealth for taxation were permitted to vote. … Unpropertied men and women, including slaves, were largely denied the franchise. … Literacy tests, poll taxes, and \*\*\*even religious tests \*\*\*were used in various places, and most white women, people of color, and Native Americans still could not vote. \<\<“Cite” (-CarnalK 02-13-2014 08:47 PM) So, you really want to compare the voting rights of the Muslim Brotherhood with negro slaves in early America? Most interesting \<“Cite” (-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 09:06 PM) Not just slaves… It was \*\*women and males without property… \*\* The comparison is if it was good enough for our democracy … why can’t Islamists Extremists Organizations be restricted from voting? The continuation of my point is that _ **the victors of the rebellion gets to decide how to set up the transition to the new legal political order** _. \<"Cite (-John Mace 02-13-2014 09:53 PM) Right. But that’s not democracy. Why do you hate democracy? \<"Cite (-NotfooledbyW 02-13-2014 11:43 PM) When did America go from no democracy to having a democracy. A functional democracy in your mind? Would it be right and fair to give the Egyptians the same amount of time to go from revolution - a taste of freedom - to a functional democracy such as ours? \<"Cite (-John Mace 02-14-2014 08:07 AM) Can \*\*you remind me when we had a coup \*\*in the US? I must have been sick the day that was covered in my history class. \<"Cite (-NotfooledbyW 02-14-2014 01:41 PM) Could you tell us why you quoted my words as if to respond but then post a reply that has no relationship at all to the question I asked. \<"Cite I never said the USA had a coup. Why would I have to remind Mace of anything about a coup in the US. CarnalK and I reached a point where the election following the coup in Egypt was being discussed. It is quite annoying that Mace came in and disrupted it. John Mace wrote on 02-13-2014 at 09:53 PM that it was _ **"not democracy"** _ in the US because the victors of the American rebellion decided to set up the transition to the new legal political order without granting women and unpropertied males the power to vote in elections. So the point has been conceded by Mace that the Egyptians do not have to achieve functional democracy for about another 130 years to be worse at it than Americans have done. Mace’s latest comment was to declare, on 02-14-2014 at 09:06 PM _“When you have a coup, you don’t have democracy”_. … So what? Mace says the US had ‘no democracy’ for 130 years. Egyptians have plenty of time to get there … and it looks like they are headed there without a civil war like American democracy went through. ---

**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2014, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/840 "2014-02-15T04:49:51Z")

> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > And let’s be clear, ‘explicitly’ is not citing a third party cited by me … > [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s already been done by me and others so many times in this thread it’s not funny. Literally, not funny. That is the problem J.Mace. You are right. Citing a third party instead of me. Why not admit you made an error and be done with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=43)