# Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071 "2014-01-17T16:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/81 "2014-01-18T22:44:58Z")
So no one answered my questions about the American and British Constitutional Referendums? I ask again then since you are all so interested in my countries referendum, then I am interested in yours too. What was voter turnout numbers and % of YES votes when American and British citizens voted in on their constitution? Any Americans or British here? ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/82 "2014-01-18T22:57:30Z")
Egyptian women take the lead. 55% of the votes who voted YES were women. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/83 "2014-01-18T22:58:26Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > So no one answered my questions about the American and British Constitutional Referendums? . . . We don’t do that. We’re Representative Democracies, and not “Direct Democracies.” The U.S. and Great Britain are simply too large to be governed by direct vote of the people. We elect people at a local level, who get together (Congress) and talk (Parliament) about what should be done. The city-state of Athens, in the early centuries B.C., might have been able to run by direct democracy. Some townships and counties in New England have open meetings where policy is debated by everyone who shows up. But when you’re up in the hundreds of millions of citizens, it doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/84 "2014-01-18T23:12:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > We don’t do that. We’re Representative Democracies, and not “Direct Democracies.” > > The U.S. and Great Britain are simply too large to be governed by direct vote of the people. We elect people at a local level, who get together (Congress) and talk (Parliament) about what should be done. > > The city-state of Athens, in the early centuries B.C., might have been able to run by direct democracy. Some townships and counties in New England have open meetings where policy is debated by everyone who shows up. But when you’re up in the hundreds of millions of citizens, it doesn’t work. Egypt is double population of Britain. Egypt has 2 chambers of Parliament like them. Egypt is much bigger country and more spread out with much worse infrastructure organisation etc How come Egyptians could organise it and British can’t? Isn’t Britain a first world country? G8 and all that. America has only 200,000 voters. Egypt has 50 million. USA is a superpower G8 country. It can handle war all over the world but can’t be governed by direct vote of the people? That’s convenient for warlords and bankers etc, BUT you didn’t answer my question. What % of Americans voted YES to your constitution when it was put to the people? whose population was a lot smaller I expect then. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/85 "2014-01-18T23:29:12Z")
You see the funny thing here is this. You are all here debating about democracy and right to vote and referendums and results on Egypt. Yet if I am right. The Egyptians got to vote for their constitution. Americans didn’t. Egyptians got to choose to accept it or not. Americans didn’t. Egyptians could put their crosses and dip their finger in the ink and wave their hands and say they voted YES BUT Americans didn’t. The British is even worse. They don’t even have a dostour. They have a queen. They are not equal because they are subjects! She is the boss and they swear allegiance to her. British say they have true democracy. Where is it then? They have 2 parties and if they don’t like either they have no one to lobby for them in Parliament. They have a lower house of unelected lords. A monarch that was not elected. Their army and police and judiciary all swear allegiance to the crown not the people. British don’t get a referendum if the Queen wants to take the country to war. British have no say in whether they want nuclear weapons dotted all around the country. and a million other things. So in fact there is zero democracy in the UK either. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/86 "2014-01-18T23:36:28Z")
So no comments back about the ‘Brotherhood infiltration’ in the US Administration either then? Doesn’t that worry you all? I guess it wouldn’t worry you if they are working FOR you I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/87 "2014-01-19T00:00:37Z")
Georgetown University DC Infested with Muslim Brotherhood members :eek: > **[Egypt & The Struggle for Democracy](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/egypt-the-struggle-for-democracy-registration-10147883593)** > > invite you to > > Egypt & The Strugglefor Democracy\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ > Wednesday, January 29, 2014 > > 9:30am - 5:30pm > > > Georgetown University > > Fisher Colloquium, 4th floor > Rafik B. Hariri Building > \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ >   > > Conference... ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/88 "2014-01-19T00:12:45Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Egypt is double population of Britain. > Egypt has 2 chambers of Parliament like them. > Egypt is much bigger country and more spread out with much worse infrastructure organisation etc > How come Egyptians could organise it and British can’t? Isn’t Britain a first world country? G8 and all that. One of the reasons we don’t have direct democracy is that it doesn’t work on this scale. Egypt is an example of how and why it doesn’t work. > [@](#): > > America has only 200,000 voters. . . . Off by a factor of a thousand. > [@](#): > > USA is a superpower G8 country. It can handle war all over the world but can’t be governed by direct vote of the people? That’s convenient for warlords and bankers etc, BUT you didn’t answer my question. It’s part of why we have bankers, but not warlords. There aren’t any soldiers patrolling my streets. There aren’t any tanks shooting at our Capitol building. We’ve worked out the principles of self-government. Egypt is still working on this. Meanwhile, Egypt is under the control of the military…and the U.S. is not. Our democratic system is part (but not all) of why we aren’t under the control of the military. > [@](#): > > What % of Americans voted YES to your constitution when it was put to the people? whose population was a lot smaller I expect then. We elected people to go and represent us, both at the Constitutional Convention, and at the State Capitals where the Constitution was ratified. No system is perfect. No system ever can be perfect. But representative self-government, when it is allowed to function, works pretty damn well. When it fails, then there is Civil War, and that’s damnably unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/89 "2014-01-19T00:37:57Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > 1. Again…The people who voted overwhelmingly voted YES. The rest there are many reason why they did not or could not vote. There is very little in it that ANY groups would disagree with anyway in the new dostour considering the Noor, Al Azhar, Coptic Church and the Pope the 3 main sections who Egyptians listen to backed the dostour 100%. > > What is your problem? 😕 So the boycott was, at most, a minor reason for the low turnout? [QUOTE=Marmite Lover] 2. I already answered the ballot question. [/QUOTE] What, aloud? You didn’t answer it in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/90 "2014-01-19T00:41:51Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > All the predictions of bloody civil war in Egypt appear to be quite wrong with this weeks news from that country. Is civil war likelihood vanished before our very eyes? Is fundamentalist Islam ceasing to be a threat in Egypt? Egyptians have already been through a lot recently and they don’t want civil war. Most of them anyway. They also don’t want a military crackdown & dictatorship. What they’ve got right now is better than the immediate alternatives, but Egyptians aren’t going to stay quiet any longer than they did after Pharaoh Morsi apparently lied his way into power. Fundamentalist Islam, or political Islam, or Al Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood or whatever you want to call it, will go away approximately the same time Christian Conservatives in the US go extinct and Israel & Iran join together wearing togas and worshiping Zeus. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/91 "2014-01-19T00:56:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > One of the reasons we don’t have direct democracy is that it doesn’t work on this scale. Egypt is an example of how and why it doesn’t work. One man one vote worked just fine this week > [@](#): > > It’s part of why we have bankers, but not warlords. > **[List of wars involving the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States)** > > This is a list of military conflicts, that United States has been involved in. There are currently 123 military conflicts on this list, 5 of which are ongoing. These include major conflicts like the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the Mexican–American War, the American Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II and the Gulf War. It also includes US involvement in widespread periods of conflict like the Indian Wars, the Cold War (including the Korean War and the ... > [@](#): > > There aren’t any soldiers patrolling my streets. Same in Egypt. We have police like you patrolling streets. > [@](#): > > There aren’t any tanks shooting at our Capitol building. Same in Egypt. Not heard any tank fire in my life in Egypt. However you army are firing tanks a plenty and selling tanks a plenty and are arming Israel with them to demolish houses and kill whole families. They ousted Gaddafy and handed the keys to his tanks to Al Qaeda etc etc etc… > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Egypt is under the control of the military…and the U.S. is not. So your president is not commander in chief then? > [@](#): > > Our democratic system is part (but not all) of why we aren’t under the control of the military. see above > [@](#): > > We elected people to go and represent us, both at the Constitutional Convention, and at the State Capitals where the Constitution was ratified. So each citizen did not get to vote. > [@](#): > > No system is perfect. No system ever can be perfect. But representative self-government, when it is allowed to function, works pretty damn well. Americans are passive. When you have a protest you play guitars and sing because anything more than that you would be shot dead. Egyptians broke through that fear barrier. > [@](#): > > When it fails, then there is Civil War, and that’s damnably unpleasant. Don’t worry that will never happen. Keeping the people in fear works fine for the government of USA. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/92 "2014-01-19T01:39:21Z")
at end of the day Morsi dostour got 11 million Yes votes Amr Moussa dostour got 20 million Yes votes ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/93 "2014-01-19T01:43:41Z")
Enough said [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xg9ASTy4t5Q/hqdefault.jpg "Kelly Thomas Official Bus Depot Video (With Court Text) Part 2") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg9ASTy4t5Q) ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/94 "2014-01-19T01:56:15Z")
Before Americans believe their media and their Western reporters who bring them the news. Remember this. It’s very easy to fool the public back home. [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeKMryyCEAAAyXp.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeKMryyCEAAAyXp.jpg:large) ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/95 "2014-01-19T01:57:35Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > [http://i43.tinypic.com/1495fec.png](http://i43.tinypic.com/1495fec.png) > > One of them the Homeland Advisor guy Elibiary had the Raba’a avatar for months and was a big supporter of Morsi during Rabaa sit in. Google removed many of the images after a huge internet campaign against this one and there are only a few places you can get the image of the old avatar now. > > You can read about one of the 6 US admin Muslim Brotherhood members Elibiary here. > > [http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/13/muslim-brotherhood-supporter-gets-homeland-security-promotion-83259](http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/13/muslim-brotherhood-supporter-gets-homeland-security-promotion-83259) > > Just think. Americans don’t even know that their HOMELAND SECURITY!!! of all depts has MB members in it 😃 Sorry Uncle, but what you are peddling is racist bullshit from unreliable sources. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/96 "2014-01-19T02:03:02Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > One man one vote worked just fine this week Large numbers of people boycotted the election. This is a problem. You don’t know what the word “warlord” means. The U.S. has none. > [@](#): > > So your president is not commander in chief then? The President is a civilian. He is not in the military. > [@](#): > > Americans are passive. When you have a protest you play guitars and sing because anything more than that you would be shot dead. Egyptians broke through that fear barrier. You apparently know nothing about the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/97 "2014-01-19T02:05:48Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > Voter turnout by itself is not a measure of legitimacy of result. Some of the people calculating which percent of Egyptians ‘opposed’ the constitutional changes by not voting are probably the same ones who’d say eg. Obama is illegitimate because less than 30% of the eligible people voted for him (or Bush same, or most recent US Presidents, in a country where high 50’s % of votes cast is a ‘landslide’ and high 50’s % of eligible voters ‘blockbuster turnout’). Well, if you find any people who said that, then you might have a point. But “probably” doesn’t cut it. > [@](#): > > However a country like Egypt just doesn’t have a working democratic system. Yeah, since the current government got there via a coup! > [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s wise for the US (I consider first since I’m American) to be any more involved in Egypt’s politics than it has to be: no good is unlikely to come of it. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/98 "2014-01-19T02:07:44Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > Georgetown University DC > > Infested with Muslim Brotherhood members :eek: > > [https://www.eventbrite.com/e/egypt-the-struggle-for-democracy-registration-10147883593](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/egypt-the-struggle-for-democracy-registration-10147883593) Uncle, your cite says nothing of the sort. Did you link to the wrong one? BTW, a friend and I were trying to recall the punch line to a popular anti-Mubarak joke from the 90s and early 2000s. “What’s the difference between a camel’s ass and Mubarak?” Thank you in advance for your answer. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/99 "2014-01-19T05:59:47Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > No > > It means that 97% of the ones who voted voted Yes > > It does not mean that the rest were against constitution. Some were but since Egyptians are not used to voting at all many do not vote. Also many are illiterate and simple people who live in villages who simply have no idea about it or care. > Also Egyptians are exhausted and dealing with terrorism daily now so many things need to be considered. > > USA between 1960-1995 was between 40% - 55% turnout for elections. 1. What you’re trying to conveniently ignore is that the opposition is boycotting the vote. 2. No election in the USA from 1960-95 resulted in anything near 97% in favor of the victor. A 60-40 split in a presidential election is a landslide victory for the winner. A 97-3 split is a rigged election. > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > [http://i43.tinypic.com/1495fec.png](http://i43.tinypic.com/1495fec.png) > > One of them the Homeland Advisor guy Elibiary had the Raba’a avatar for months and was a big supporter of Morsi during Rabaa sit in. Google removed many of the images after a huge internet campaign against this one and there are only a few places you can get the image of the old avatar now. > > You can read about one of the 6 US admin Muslim Brotherhood members Elibiary here. > > [http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/13/muslim-brotherhood-supporter-gets-homeland-security-promotion-83259](http://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/09/13/muslim-brotherhood-supporter-gets-homeland-security-promotion-83259) > > Just think. Americans don’t even know that their HOMELAND SECURITY!!! of all depts has MB members in it 😃 This is just sad, conspiratorial horseshit you’re trying to shovel here. I asked for a cite from something other than WND or [rense.com](http://rense.com), and while technically not from either of those sites I assumed “or of comparable quality” was implied. For youe edification, [Muslim Brotherhood conspiracy theories](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood_conspiracy_theories). > [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > So your president is not commander in chief then? **Trinopus** is right, you **really** don’t get how things work in the US or functioning democracies. The military answers to civilian leadership, not the other way around. Yes, the President of the United States is the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces. He is also a civilian. Eisenhower had to resign his commission in the Army before entering office; by law the president can not be a member of the military. See [civilian control of the military](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_control_of_the_military). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2014, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/100 "2014-01-19T07:30:01Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > The military answers to civilian leadership, not the other way around. Yes, the President of the United States is the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces. He is also a civilian. Eisenhower had to resign his commission in the Army before entering office; by law the president can not be a member of the military. See [civilian control of the military](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_control_of_the_military). To tell you the truth, I don’t understand the distinction. Eisenhower resigned - he just removed the title from himself. He was still the boss of the top general. And he was still the same person exactly that he was right before he resigned. So the difference was only symbolic, and did not affect anything. What if he didn’t resign - other than symbolism, what would have changed? If Sisi runs for president/wins, resigns from the military but retains (let’s say according to the Egyptian Constitution, even though I don’t know exactly how it handles that) full control over the military, from the top general down, does that affect anything? Just because now he’s called “Mr.” vs. “General”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=6)