# Is civil war in Egypt averted? 90% yes for new Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071 "2014-01-17T16:30:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1001 "2014-02-25T22:53:15Z")
[quote=“NotfooledbyW, post:993, topic:679071”] . So is there a reason to trump up charges like this after the fact? > [@CarnalK](#): > > Since you can’t arrest someone for being a bad economist and arresting him is the surest way to keep him from going around demanding back the presidency, yes there’s plenty of reasons to trump up some charges. > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > A point was reached very quickly with the passage of the new constitution giving the military an ok for removing Morsi. The coup was celebrated as much as removing Mubarak. Morsi could go around demanding his office back but the fool would look more foolish than he was while in office. The man had no real power or mandate to do what he was doing during his first year in office. > > The military suspended the constitution and could hold Morsi for a long while on the basis of maintaining order and eliminating any civil violence that his freedom might have promoted. > > Perhaps Morsi really pissed Al Sissi off. > [@CarnalK](#): > > I mean saying yet again that the coup was justified has zero to do with whether these treason charges are valid. I was responding to your reply that trumped up charges were the, “surest way to keep him from going around demanding back the presidency”. Celebrations of the coup after the fact do not justify the coup. My point is that the military was so popular following the coup and they could hold Morsi without arresting him. Does that not allow one to wonder why the military would need to ‘trump up’ charges which in itself could incite further violence? They could simply detain Morsi until such time that things calmed down. I think that is a valid question. Again I am not saying the military has not trumped up theses charged. I am asking why they would think they need to. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1002 "2014-02-25T23:42:01Z")
Imprisoning your political opponents is as old as civilization. Your argument seems to be that the coup was so needed and so popular that Morsi is already neutralized as an opponent so why bothering framing him? Bizarrely ignoring that there is a shitload of people, eg the Muslim Brotherhood, who don’t see it that way. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2014, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1003 "2014-02-25T23:49:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Imprisoning your political opponents is as old as civilization. Your argument seems to be that the coup was so needed and so popular that Morsi is already neutralized as an opponent so why bothering framing him? Bizarrely ignoring that there is a shitload of people, eg the Muslim Brotherhood, who don’t see it that way. Not to mention the show that they may feel needs to be put on for the outside world. Even Stalin staged “trials”, before he executed his political enemies. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1004 "2014-02-26T00:54:51Z")
Well not just the outside world. Vilifying Morsi is useful domestically for all those Egyptians who merely thought he was incompetent. But no look! He’s a traitor too! ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1005 "2014-02-26T00:59:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Imprisoning your political opponents is as old as civilization. Point was they had the ability to imprison Morsi with and without trumping up a charge of giving defense secrets to the Republican Guard in Iran. And what would make you think that I am ignoring the Muslim Brotherhood’s certain vehement dissagreement with millions of Egyptians who support the coup and celebrate it? Morsi himself tainted the MB organization as not suited to govern a free and tolerant society. I’m still wondering why trump up charges that may discredit the takeover if competent evidence cannot be produced. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1006 "2014-02-26T01:13:35Z")
You have not actually made that point. What would he have been imprisoned for? ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1007 "2014-02-26T01:26:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well not just the outside world. Vilifying Morsi is useful domestically for all those Egyptians who merely thought he was incompetent. But no look! He’s a traitor too! That’s a good point. Tying the MB to a traitor they support could define the organization as never welcome in a democratic Egypt. However the record of incompetence and excess of Islamist-driven policy decisions is not in dispute. It seems there might be some risk by pushing trumped up charges that many might recognize what they are. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1008 "2014-02-26T01:35:12Z")
Well the obvious incompetence is in dispute to some degree in this very thread. Sometimes a leader can’t just fix the damn economy in less than a year and people disputed just how he could have handled the violence any differently. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1009 "2014-02-26T01:52:16Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > The military suspended the constitution and could hold Morsi for a long while … > [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > My point is that the military was so popular following the coup and they could hold Morsi without arresting him. …They could simply detain Morsi until such time that things calmed down. > [@CarnalK](#): > > You have not actually made that point. What would he have been imprisoned for? As I wrote (see above) … Until things calmed down. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1010 "2014-02-26T01:59:42Z")
Yes they could. They could also drag him out to the street and shoot him in the head. It’s all about what optics they want. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1011 "2014-02-26T02:39:19Z")
> **[What Led to Morsi's Fall—and What Comes Next?](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/what-led-morsis-fall-and-what-comes-next/)** > > That a popular revolt facilitated Morsi’s ouster is undeniable. But it has also solidified the military’s role as the final arbiter of power in Egypt. > [@](#): > > Just over one year ago, on June 29, Mohammed Morsi chose Tahrir Square to deliver his first address as president-elect of Egypt. >   > “There is no power above people power,” he declared. “Today you are the source of this power. You give this power to whomever you want and you withhold it from whomever you want.” On his way in Morsi appeared to realize the source of power that put him in a very exalted position in history … on his way out he should have remembered his own words and respected the people who entrusted him to that position of power. Morsi failed the “people” and they took back the power they granted him as he told them they should do one year before. Morsi’s incompetence has been defined in many ways: From the same link: > [@](#): > > The Morsi administration and the Brotherhood governed in a unilateral fashion, employing a winner-take-all majoritarian view of their electoral gains that alienated parties from across the political spectrum—including erstwhile allies in the ultraconservative Salafi Nour Party—and prevented them from building trust among Egyptians outside of their traditional constituency. They opted not to engage in any meaningful consultations on state policy between the government and NGOs, civil society, activists and other stakeholders. > > All the while, the Brotherhood practiced varying degrees of identity politics for political goals, relying on divisive religious rhetoric against the Coptic minority and even sectarian incitement against Shia Muslims. > > Egypt’s political fabric first began to come apart at the seams following Morsi’s November 2012 constitutional declaration that granted him far-reaching powers and placed his decisions above judicial reach. This sparked the first mass protests against his rule, leading to clashes between his opponents and supporters. The Brotherhood then rammed through a constitution drafted by an assembly that had seen a walkout of all of its non-Islamist members, a move that polarized the political arena beyond repair. The Brotherhood’s reluctance to engage in any kind inclusive or consensual process left it politically isolated when dissenters began to coalesce against it. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1012 "2014-02-26T12:08:19Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well the obvious incompetence is in dispute to some degree in this very thread. Sometimes a leader can’t just fix the damn economy in less than a year and people disputed just how he could have handled the violence any differently. I expect you are right that if one rigid segment of Egyptian society was fully impressed with Morsi’s bulldozer approach to crushing and demolishing the revolutionaries’ democratic ideals then they would argue that Morsi was competant. Being a fully competant bulldozer operator just does not cut it for me. And apparently it didnt cut it for ‘the people’ that ended Mubarak’s non-democratic method of governing too. Face it, Morsi didnt endeavor to construct a democratic institution in Egypt. He was elected in part by a slim margin because many revolutionaries perceived he was better than the opponent who was tied to the military and Mubarak. Morsi did not serve those who likely carried him into office. Failure to recognize the need and wisdom to do that so early in the democratic process was hugely incompetent as I believe most can see it, ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1013 "2014-02-26T13:12:04Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > [http://www.thenation.com/article/175128/what-led-morsis-fall-and-what-comes-next#](http://www.thenation.com/article/175128/what-led-morsis-fall-and-what-comes-next#) > > On his way in Morsi appeared to realize the source of power that put him in a very exalted position in history … on his way out he should have remembered his own words and respected the people who entrusted him to that position of power. Morsi failed the “people” and they took back the power they granted him as he told them they should do one year before. The people who put him in power are not the people who removed him from power. Your own cite says that the military is the final arbiter of power in Egypt. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1014 "2014-02-27T02:12:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The people who put him in power are not the people who removed him from power. Your own cite says that the military is the final arbiter of power in Egypt. Yes, they (the military) sided in the end with the revolutionaries and moderately religious middle class and business people. They saw the power of the people in the streets were opposed to religious fanatics and the undemocratic actions President Morsi’s - so they acted to the power of the people. Do you disagree with that rather universally accepted observation? It is absolutely consistent with saying the military was the final arbitrator of power in Egypt. And they are. They could have sided with Morsi and tried to crush the revolutionaries and their second revolt in two years. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2014, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1015 "2014-02-27T09:36:09Z")
Hey guys, it looks like we were wrong to doubt the benevolent intentions of the Egyptian military. According to this CNN story, [they are reporting they have cured AIDS and Hepatitis C.](http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/27/world/africa/egypt-aids-cure-claim/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) > [@](#): > > “I defeated AIDS with the grace of my God at the rate of 100% . And I defeated Hepatitis C,” said Maj. Gen. Ibrahim Abdel-Atti, head of the Cancer Treatment and Screening center. > … > After the military led the ouster of President Mohamed Morsy last year, a cult-like loyalty to the country’s army and its chief, El-Sisi, triggered a new era of repression that has claimed hundreds of lives, suppressed organized opposition, and jailed journalists and activists, according to human rights groups. > > Against a backdrop of fear, scientific justification appears secondary to some. > > “The interim president should fire the scientific adviser, Essam Heggy, after his offensive comments to Egypt and the army,” Mohammed Abu Hamed, an Egyptian politician and vice chairman of the Free Egyptians Party, tweeted Wednesday. > > Pro-military journalists and media outlets urged Egyptians to rejoice after the army announced the invention will be available in June. > > “Has the level of doubt reached such a high level on an international breakthrough? This will benefit all of humanity and solve a crisis that the medical community has not been able to fix for years. This is something we should celebrate,” Maha Salim, a state media reporter, said on private network Tahrir TV. Of course, there will always be foolish doubters: > [@](#): > > The lack of skepticism inside the restive country will do little to shield it from a medical community demanding evidence and answers. > > "Until we see the results of all phases of clinical research, we as academics cannot accept to hear this, " Shiha said. “The place of scientific facts is in published papers and journals, not in press conferences.” So, praise them. Not only are they furthering democracy, they are making medical breakthroughs. (unless the story is hoax to discredit the military, bastard anti-democracy fringe) ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1016 "2014-02-28T12:22:35Z")
Why does Obama refuse to declare the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organisation?? > [@](#): > > The government presented evidence at trial that, as the U.S. began to scrutinize individuals and entities in the U.S. who were raising funds for terrorist groups in the mid-1990s, the HLF intentionally hid its financial support for Hamas behind the guise of charitable donations. HLF and these five defendants provided approximately $12.4 million in support to Hamas and its goal of creating an Islamic Palestinian state by eliminating the State of Israel through violent jihad. > > The government’s case included testimony that in the early 1990’s, Hamas’ parent organization, the Muslim Brotherhood, planned to establish a network of organizations in the U.S. to spread a militant Islamist message and raise money for Hamas. The government’s case also included testimony about Hamas material found in zakat committees. The defendants sent HLF-raised funds to Hamas- controlled zakat committees and charitable societies in the West Bank and Gaza. Zakat is an Arabic word meaning the religious obligation to give alms. > > HLF became the chief fundraising arm for the Palestine Committee in the U.S. created by the Muslim Brotherhood to support Hamas. According to a wiretap of a 1993 Palestine Committee meeting in Philadelphia, former HLF President and CEO Shukri Abu Baker, spoke about playing down Hamas ties in order to keep raising money in the U.S. Another wiretapped phone call included Abdulrahman Odeh, HLF’s New Jersey representative, referring to a suicide bombing as “a beautiful operation.” [http://www.justice.gov/usao/txn/PressRel08/HLF\_convict\_pr.html](http://www.justice.gov/usao/txn/PressRel08/HLF_convict_pr.html) ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1017 "2014-02-28T12:24:26Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Hey guys, it looks like we were wrong to doubt the benevolent intentions of the Egyptian military. > > According to this CNN story, [they are reporting they have cured AIDS and Hepatitis C.](http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/27/world/africa/egypt-aids-cure-claim/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) > > Of course, there will always be foolish doubters: > > So, praise them. Not only are they furthering democracy, they are making medical breakthroughs. > > (unless the story is hoax to discredit the military, bastard anti-democracy fringe) The real story before the enhancement by the media was that the army scientists detected a LOW COST screening technique, not a cure. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1018 "2014-02-28T13:58:13Z")
[QUOE]In early 2012, Muslim Brotherhood presidential candidate Mohammed Morsi pranced around Egypt proclaiming “Jihad is our path,” and thought there was nothing better than to die in the cause of Allah—that is, the exact language used by terrorists! Despite this, Barack Obama gushed on national television after Morsi was elected President of Egypt. And oddly—or not so oddly—Obama continued to gush over Morsi while reports surfaced that the Muslim Brotherhood were setting up torture chambers for their political enemies, not to mention openly crucifying Christians! When Morsi was deposed, the Egyptian military discovered a treasure trove of documents linking the Obama regime with the illegal activities of the Muslim Brotherhood. One such document is a list of Muslim Brotherhood officials receiving secret bribes in U.S. currency, paid out by the U.S. consulate, amounting to millions of dollars. Investigative journalist Jerome Corsi has obtained a copy of the document held by the Egyptian military, proving the Obama regime sent millions of dollars in bribes to the Muslim Brotherhood. But who was managing all of this money? Did the Muslim Brotherhood walk around with hundreds of thousands of dollars in their pockets? Enter Malik Obama, Obama’s half brother. According to Egyptian television, citing the Supreme Constitutional Court of Egypt: ``` The President’s brother…is one of the architects of the major investments of the Muslim Brotherhood. ``` We’re not just talking about the bribes the Muslim Brotherhood received in Egypt, but the entire Muslim Brotherhood finances—worldwide—that more than likely included an astounding $8 billion dollar bribe to the Muslim Brotherhood made by the Obama regime. The bribe was payment to guarantee that the huge tract of Egyptian land, the Sinai Peninsula, be turned over to the Muslim Brotherhood sister group Hamas, undoubtably to put Israel in an indefensible position. The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas mince no words about their goals for Israel: total annihilation. According to Egypt Daily News, a document exists showing the eight billion dollar “holocaust” agreement with the Obama administration that was signed by former Muslim Brotherhood President Mohammed Morsi and his second in command Khairat Al-Shater, both under arrest by the Egyptian military for murder and treason. Does this document really exist, showing the $8 billion dollar bribe signed by Obama or one of his representatives? Undoubtably. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1019 "2014-02-28T14:14:59Z")
They’ve got it all wrong: the Sinai was to be turned over to the lizard people. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071/1020 "2014-02-28T14:30:18Z")
> [@Marmite\_Lover](#): > > The real story before the enhancement by the media was that the army scientists detected a LOW COST screening technique, not a cure. Even if that were true (and it doesn’t appear to be) it is bogus on its face. Not a ringing endorsement for the regime. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-civil-war-in-egypt-averted-90-yes-for-new-constitution/679071.md?page=52)