# Is class a big issue in your society? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 4, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218 "2010-03-04T00:36:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/21 "2010-03-08T17:29:25Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > One thing I’ve noticed about OVERT attitudes and behaviors about class in America is that there is a bit of an east-west split. Here in New York, a common (and commonly known) occurrence is the disco or nightclub where the proprietors let some folks in while keeping others outside, based on who they are and who they seem to be. In many western states, this would reek of such snobbery and pretentious elitism that no one would go there. The wealthy kids from elite families are much more inclined to avoid any public behavior that makes it look like they think they are better than anyone else, if initially only because the other wealthy elite kids and their parents and etc would consider them gross and coarse if they did. Again, it’s not a true absense of class but a “subtleification” of it. From what I’ve seen, the elitist line thing pretty much exists anywhere there are nightclubs popular enough to have lines. First of all, even just going to nightclubs (especially the sort that has lines) indicates a certain level of affluence. You don’t see to many working class folks chillin at the Hotel Gansevoort at $15 a drink. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/22 "2010-03-08T18:08:11Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > America is far less formal and considerably less class-conscious in general than most European countries. We pay a lot of attention to raw WEALTH but that’s not the same thing. > > Mind you, I’m not saying that class _does not play a major role_ here, but rather that a vast portion of it goes below the radar. Example: two Americans get stripped of employment and lose all their economic resources, and by coincidence lose all family and friends and former schoolmates and bosses and colleagues, etc to a freak flu epidemic. One of them has a career arc (even if it can’t be proven) consisting of a string of executive positions, the other has worked only as a day laborer. The truth is that a vast repertoire of small behaviors, including nuances of language use, will make the former executive eventually likely to make a brand new contact and get a brand new job doing something highly lucrative with a lot of job responsibility, even without a single reference. Interestingly, the other guy may be able to find A JOB first and/or hold onto it better: a different behavioral library makes this person able to blend in and be perceived as belonging and appropriate on a larger number of total jobs; it’s not just presence or absence of various social cues, it’s the contrast between different sets of them. The former executive might get yelled at and fired the first day as an unskilled carpenter’s assistant on a construction crew. Yeah, but take, say, an American kid born dirt-poor and raised in a trailer park, who manages to win an academic scholership to an Ivy League school, gets an MBA, and ends up running a Fortune 500 company. I don’t think anyone will look down on him because of his humble background; in fact, he may get even more respect. So long as he can talk the talk and walk the walk, being born low-class only gives an American more “street cred”. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/23 "2010-03-08T19:08:01Z")
Interesting question; I would say class is not a big issue in Canada, but I was born working poor, and I’m now middle-class, and everyone I know is middle-class. Maybe it’s a bigger issue here than we realize. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/24 "2010-03-08T19:23:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yeah, but take, say, an American kid born dirt-poor and raised in a trailer park, who manages to win an academic scholership to an Ivy League school, gets an MBA, and ends up running a Fortune 500 company. I don’t think anyone will look down on him because of his humble background; in fact, he may get even more respect. So long as he can talk the talk and walk the walk, being born low-class only gives an American more “street cred”. I think this is right. America has classes, but it’s more about who you are, rather than who your ancestors were. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/25 "2010-03-08T19:58:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I grew up in Fairfield County, CT, which is one of the wealthiest counties in the country. . . I’ve never really understood this issue in CT. The few people I’ve known from CT (small sample, maybe 15-20) were extremely class conscious, and very catty and competitive about it. The trouble with that, of course, is that if you feel the need to compete around class lines and definitions, then you are self-identifying as being of questionable class. It comes across as a state-wide insecurity complex. The impression is intensified by the fact that not a single county in the top 25 wealthiest of the US is located in CT. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States) Conversely, six of the top ten are within 20 miles of each other in the VA/MD area around Washington, DC. This is where I grew up. Throwing the net slightly wider we find 11 of the top 25 in the same general area. In my area class is not discussed in terms of fiscal resources; rather it is a function of charitable work. Anyone who relies upon their family and past history to justify their self-esteem is looked down upon. Conspicuous spending is considered laughable. Clothing with obvious logos etc. fosters and immediate assumption of lack of intellect. Social meritocracy is how I would describe it. Folks here pretty much divide themselves by morals and ambitions and related criteria. The “fast cars and cocaine” types are not invited to the charitable events thrown by the “caring society builders”, and so forth. So yes, class, as we define it is important, but we define it in terms that are important to us. I think the same may be true of most societies. I presume there may be high-Caste Hindus who are not necessarily rich, just as the same may be said of “royal” families in Europe. Each defines their criteria along the lines of what earns their respect. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/26 "2010-03-08T21:15:22Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I’ve never really understood this issue in CT. The few people I’ve known from CT (small sample, maybe 15-20) were extremely class conscious, and very catty and competitive about it. The trouble with that, of course, is that if you feel the need to compete around class lines and definitions, then you are self-identifying as being of questionable class. Traditionally, one does not presume to call people from other states “catty” and “competetive about class distinctions” and then proceed to make catty, competetive statements distinguishing their class. > [@TruCelt](#): > > It comes across as a state-wide insecurity complex. It’s not the entire state.😉 > [@TruCelt](#): > > The impression is intensified by the fact that not a single county in the top 25 wealthiest of the US is located in CT. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States) It would depend on how you are measuring and what survey you are looking at. Fairfield County, CT is the westernmost county in Connecticut and thus is a popular location for commuters to New York City. Especially Wall Street types. According to your own Wikipedia citation it is listed as: highest-income counties by per capita income (2000) - #5 highest-income counties by median household income (2000) - #37 highest-income counties by personal per capita income (2005) - #6 highest-income counties by average per capita income (2009) - #6 [America’s Wealthiest Suburbs - #3](http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/pages/122.html) (I love how it specifically indicates “part outside of Bridgeport, CT”) [Municipalities with highest per capita income (2007) - #6](http://www.dailyfinance.com/article/50-municipalities-with-highest-per/490738/) [Connecticut in general was ranked as the third wealthiest state in 2007.](http://money.cnn.com/2007/08/28/real_estate/wealthiest_states/index.htm) [4 of the top 25 biggest earning towns in 2008 were in CT.](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bplive/2008/top25s/financial/) Not surprisingly, that number is down this year with the financial collapses. The actual rankings are largely irrelevant. Every major city has a number of places where the wealthy suburbanites live. One year it will be Fairfield County. The next it will be Morris Country, NJ. > [@TruCelt](#): > > Conversely, six of the top ten are within 20 miles of each other in the VA/MD area around Washington, DC. This is where I grew up. Throwing the net slightly wider we find 11 of the top 25 in the same general area. Our states are a lot smaller than yours in land mass. You will find a similar pattern of wealthy communities in New Jersey and New York. Also, I am not interested in getting into a penis-measuring contest with you over which metropolitan area boasts the wealthiest suburbs. > [@TruCelt](#): > > In my area class is not discussed in terms of fiscal resources; rather it is a function of charitable work. Anyone who relies upon their family and past history to justify their self-esteem is looked down upon. Conspicuous spending is considered laughable. Clothing with obvious logos etc. fosters and immediate assumption of lack of intellect. Social meritocracy is how I would describe it. Folks here pretty much divide themselves by morals and ambitions and related criteria. The “fast cars and cocaine” types are not invited to the charitable events thrown by the “caring society builders”, and so forth. I would guess that your area is influenced by Washington lawmaker culture much in the same way my area is influenced by Wall Street as well as the arts and entertainment culture. An emphasis is placed on academic, financial or entrepreneureal success. I would say there is a similar attitude towards conspicuous spending, unless you are somehow aligned with the fashion community or something. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/27 "2010-03-08T22:55:50Z")
Isn’t attending charity events just another form of conspicuous spending? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/28 "2010-03-09T13:56:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Isn’t attending charity events just another form of conspicuous spending? Yes. So is adopting an affectation of pretending not to care about money. People with money can pretend not to care about it. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/29 "2010-03-10T14:42:32Z")
I live in England. Pretty much every aspect of English life is affected by awareness of class and class-related issues. It’s something that permeates every waking hour, and seeps insidously into almost every meeting. I’d go so far as to say a lot of English life only really makes sense if you have grown up here and can understand the silent, unacknowledged class warfare that infects just about everything. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/30 "2010-03-10T22:01:22Z")
From what I’ve read, and seen, about this topic, you automatically descend one level by using the word “class”. “Classy” knocks you down three. Also, you must never, ever go bowling. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/31 "2010-03-10T22:09:41Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > From what I’ve read, and seen, about this topic, you automatically descend one level by using the word “class”. “Classy” knocks you down three. > > Also, you must never, ever go bowling. 😃 Like using the term brainy means you’re likely not. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/32 "2010-03-10T22:22:55Z")
> [@ianzin](#): > > I live in England. Pretty much every aspect of English life is affected by awareness of class and class-related issues. It’s something that permeates every waking hour, and seeps insidously into almost every meeting. I’d go so far as to say a lot of English life only really makes sense if you have grown up here and can understand the silent, unacknowledged class warfare that infects just about everything. I live in England and grew up here, and I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not aware of anything “seeping insidiously” into my daily business, but I’ll certainly keep an eye out for it. Sounds nasty. I would agree that nothing seems to make any sense, but I thought that was a universal condition and not one confined to the English. ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/33 "2010-03-11T14:31:25Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I’ve never really understood this issue in CT. The few people I’ve known from CT (small sample, maybe 15-20) were extremely class conscious, and very catty and competitive about it. The trouble with that, of course, is that if you feel the need to compete around class lines and definitions, then you are self-identifying as being of questionable class. It comes across as a state-wide insecurity complex. > > The impression is intensified by the fact that not a single county in the top 25 wealthiest of the US is located in CT. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highest-income_counties_in_the_United_States) Conversely, six of the top ten are within 20 miles of each other in the VA/MD area around Washington, DC. This is where I grew up. Throwing the net slightly wider we find 11 of the top 25 in the same general area. > > In my area class is not discussed in terms of fiscal resources; rather it is a function of charitable work. Anyone who relies upon their family and past history to justify their self-esteem is looked down upon. Conspicuous spending is considered laughable. Clothing with obvious logos etc. fosters and immediate assumption of lack of intellect. Social meritocracy is how I would describe it. Folks here pretty much divide themselves by morals and ambitions and related criteria. The “fast cars and cocaine” types are not invited to the charitable events thrown by the “caring society builders”, and so forth. > > So yes, class, as we define it is important, but we define it in terms that are important to us. I think the same may be true of most societies. I presume there may be high-Caste Hindus who are not necessarily rich, just as the same may be said of “royal” families in Europe. Each defines their criteria along the lines of what earns their respect. Ct. is a strange state in that some towns are extemely affluent and then you get to Bridgeport and your in the sewer. “Urban Bridgeport” to me was funny because it is the dividing line of wealth. There is nothing urban about it. It is an oxymoron. Like New Haven is a nice college town as long as you wear a bullet proof vest. You often see very high class towns with a supporting lower class town nearby to provide the rich with people to cut their lawn and work at the stores and restaurants. The drugs are also closeby as the wealthy like to party. Growing up there I did not like the snobs and the crime ridden cities. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218/34 "2010-03-11T15:07:37Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Traditionally, one does not presume to call people from other states “catty” and “competetive about class distinctions” and then proceed to make catty, competetive statements distinguishing their class. > > It’s not the entire state.😉 You misread my tone here. That is not catty and competitive, it is disgusted and contemptuous. A careful re-reading will also show that I limited my comments to the 15-20 people I have known who are from there. > [@](#): > > Also, I am not interested in getting into a penis-measuring contest with you over which metropolitan area boasts the wealthiest suburbs. Neither am I; never was. I only wished to show that those 15-20 people had defined a competition they couldn’t win, then proceeded to try and force other people into participating whenever possible. My second point was that having experienced an area which actually would meet the criteria they attempted to set up, I could attest that the very characteristics these 15-20 people believed were signs of wealth, were in fact the opposite. > [@](#): > > I would guess that your area is influenced by Washington lawmaker culture much in the same way my area is influenced by Wall Street as well as the arts and entertainment culture. An emphasis is placed on academic, financial or entrepreneureal success. That is true, but the lawmakers tend to revolve out and change regularly. I would say the most constant influence is the military culture, which is a big benefit to us. > [@](#): > > I would say there is a similar attitude towards conspicuous spending, unless you are somehow aligned with the fashion community or something. That’s something we have only recently experienced. In the time period between the influences of Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Obama, the local fashion could be characterised as “frumpy is ‘in’”. LOL! I do apologize if any of my comments came across as offensive. I certainly did not mean to malign the entire state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-class-a-big-issue-in-your-society/531218.md?page=1)