# Is Clinton useing Tactics that should discredit a candidate? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366 "2008-01-21T13:18:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/81 "2008-01-24T18:31:11Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Of course, one can only hope that _Democrats_ will continue to demonize Clinton’s character further so as to assure the latter outcome. [/QUOTE] Do we owe her a pass? Maybe she should try not doing things worth demonizing by your own party. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/82 "2008-01-24T18:37:53Z")
[QUOTE=Jophiel] Do we owe her a pass? Maybe she should try not doing things worth demonizing by your own party. [/QUOTE] So far nobody has presented a lick of evidence to support the idea that she needs some good ol’ demonizing. ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/83 "2008-01-24T18:46:56Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] The bottom line is that the country needs Bill back in the White House a lot more than it needs Obama. [/QUOTE] Bet you wish [this](http://www.theonion.com/content/news/bill_clinton_screw_it_im_running) was true. It’s all politics as usual for Billary. Smear, lie, discredit, distort. Even though I won’t vote for Obama (lack of experience and his platform), I respect him for the candor he has shown in his own missteps with drugs and Rezko. He has been honest and forthcoming and has tried to not descend into the slime that the Clintons smear everywhere. He has tried to not let the crap get to him but he is being double teamed from one opponent. Michelle Obama makes some speeches and occasionally they get in the news. Elizabeth Edwards is not appearing in the spotlight because she has more pressing concerns due to her battle with cancer. So Barak is facing 3 stumping opponents while Hillary faces 2. Hillary needs to stop the bullshit and run a clean campaign. Bill needs to sit down, shut up and stay way the hell away from any kind of official government role. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/84 "2008-01-24T18:50:51Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] So far nobody has presented a lick of evidence to support the idea that she needs some good ol’ demonizing. [/QUOTE] Whether or not she does is a matter of opinion. One man’s minor transgression is another man’s mortal sin. Whether or not you agree, obviously many people think she’s acted very inappropriately. The question remains, if I (or whoever) thinks she’s acting extremely poorly, do we owe her a pass? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/85 "2008-01-24T18:56:55Z")
[QUOTE=Jophiel] The question remains, if I (or whoever) thinks she’s acting extremely poorly, do we owe her a pass? [/QUOTE] No. You obviously should vote your conscience. I’ll continue to argue that the evidence you are using to support your decision, to the degree that you offer it here, is damn flimsy. I have more of a problem with people who say that they’d vote first for Obama, and then for McCain over Clinton, than I do with people who would abstain from voting rather than vote for Clinton, but I think the motivations in both cases are suspect. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/86 "2008-01-24T19:18:21Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] So far nobody has presented a lick of evidence to support the idea that she needs some good ol’ demonizing. [/QUOTE] How about [this?](http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-clintonad24jan24,1,2955098.story) > [@](#): > > The ad takes one line from an Obama interview – “The Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time there over the last 10, 15 years” – and juxtaposes it with GOP policies that Obama has never advocated. > > “Really?” a voice over says. “Aren’t those the ideas that got us into the economic mess we’re in today? Ideas like special tax breaks for Wall Street. Running up a $9-trillion debt. Refusing to raise the minimum wage or deal with the housing crisis. Are those the ideas Barack Obama’s talking about?” > > The Clinton campaign argued that it was simply quoting Obama. > > But in the original context, Obama was describing the dominance of GOP ideas in the 1980s and 1990s, without saying that he supported them. He asserted that those ideas were of no use today. I think this add falls into the category of things worth demonizing. Obama never said he supported any of the ideas in the voice over. This Clinton ad is worthy of Atwater at his slimiest. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/87 "2008-01-24T19:30:23Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] I think this add falls into the category of things worth demonizing. Obama never said he supported any of the ideas in the voice over. This Clinton ad is worthy of Atwater at his slimiest. [/QUOTE] I find the time frame in the quote to be kind of odd myself. Given that he was also waxing nostalgic for Reagan, I would assume he was talking about the 80’s, but he also says “the **last** 10 to 15 years”, which sounds to me like 1993 to the present. Which did he mean? On the other hand, running up an x-trillion dollar debt, refusing to pass minimum wage, or dealing with housing problems were Republican “ideas” that were true during both time periods, so perhaps the question of which time period he was talking about is moot. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/88 "2008-01-24T19:36:47Z")
[QUOTE=Wee Bairn] The end justifies the means, absolutely. It would be a wonderful place if all the candidates could sit around in a friendship circle and sing Kumbaya isntead of debate, but that’s not how it is. The Hispanics aren’t voting for Obama, the whites say they will but who knows- Clinton has the best chance, Bill knows it. [/QUOTE] Thanks, Hillary. Jeez, your certainty here is just bizarre. For one thing, Bill Clinton isn’t running for President. If he would have a positive impact on government then let the President - Obama, Edwards, whomever - name him to cabinet. I mean, if you’re a Hillary Clinton supporter that’s fine, but this isn’t really the place for out-and-out blind campaigning. > [@](#): > > Clinton is buds with tons of world leaders, he could have a huge impact on world affairs at this crucial time- Obama would be an unknown- who knows whether anyone would take him seriously. If he were the President of the United States of America, he would be taken seriously. And if you think Bill Clinton is “buds” with any world leader, you need to reexamine the realities of international politics. World leaders are not “buds.” Clinton is respected and taken seriously because he was the President; ALL Presidents are taken seriously. But no world leader on the face of the earth is going to change their nation’s policies because they think Bill Clinton is the bestest guy ever. They’ll be friends when it suits them and enemies when it suits them and do whatever suits them. Another nation will follow whatever policy suits that nation, no matter who’s married to the President. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/89 "2008-01-24T19:44:04Z")
He was making the point that there is a difference between a transformational president and a non-transformational one. Many people in the campaign have denied that a transformational presidency is even possible. He was downplaying the notion that he is a singular figure, by pointing to other agents of change, and pointing out that the democrats have not been agents of change in a long time. > [@](#): > > I don’t want to present myself as some sort of singular figure…I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not…I think Kennedy, twenty years earlier, moved the country in a fundamentally different direction. So I think a lot of it just has to do with the times. I think we’re in one of those times right now. Where people feel like things as they are going aren’t working. We’re bogged down in the same arguments that we’ve been having, and they’re not useful. > > And, you know, the Republican approach, I think, has played itself out. > > I think it’s fair to say the Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time there over the last ten, fifteen years, in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/90 "2008-01-24T20:03:19Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] And if you think Bill Clinton is “buds” with any world leader, you need to reexamine the realities of international politics. World leaders are not “buds.” Clinton is respected and taken seriously because he was the President; ALL Presidents are taken seriously. [/QUOTE] Agreed. Remember when Clinton & Blair were Best Friends Forever? Then remember how Bush and Blair were BFF’s after Bush took office? So it goes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/91 "2008-01-24T20:34:52Z")
I already voted in the CA primary (write-in ballot), so it’s not going to matter me, personally, what happens from here on in. But I don’t want to leave the impression that I’m completely turned off by Clinton. I don’t like her campaign style, but I’ve held my nose while voting in plenty of elections in the past. There’s a good chance she’ll get my vote in Nov if she is the Democratic nominee and the Republican nominee is anyone besides McCain. If it comes down to Hillary v McCain, it will depend on what the situation in Iraq is at the time, and which party looks like they’ll be in control of Congress after the election. ---
**Author:** ![tds1273](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/df705f/32.png) [@tds1273](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tds1273)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366/92 "2008-01-24T23:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] A couple of points: Rovian tactics are to suggest that one has fathered an African American child out of wedlock, to suggest that an opponent whose strength is his work with and on behalf of children is a pederast, to plant a listening device in one’s own office and then cry foul when it is “discovered”, to suggest that one’s opponent would take your bible or your guns from your hands or have the country running rampant with teh gay. Interpreting vague comments one way versus another is not quite at the same level, now is it? [/QUOTE] That might not be, but having an Ex-President, a secret service team, and scores of reporters; who, while making an already crowded mess of a casino floor even more crowded and more messy for those trying to get to the caucus areas in a hurry, make a claim that they ‘overheard’ a conversation about voters being obstructed? That just might be. Considering what they were claiming, of which I haven’t seen any strong supporting evidence off, couldn’t it be argued that they were Union busting as well. Plus, its interesting how the last minute campaigning worked two fold and eliminated Edwards from the mix. By having smooth talking Bubba there just before the caucus doors closed to shmooze and slick talk those last minute undecideds, and _perhaps_ make access to the caucuses more difficult to navigate through his entourage, he was able to give Hillary an early jump in the numbers. This forced the abCs(“anyone but Clinton”) camps, mostly Edwards and Kucinich supporters, to go on the offensive and caucus with Obama just to try and beat Hillary. Hence the abnormal complete lack of numbers for Edwards and Kucinich, usually strong with Union workers, and the near 50/50 split, rather than the typical, roughly, 35, 35, 25, 2, ±3% splits that polls and ballots usually show. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-clinton-useing-tactics-that-should-discredit-a-candidate/434366.md?page=4)