# Is Cockney still spoken? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600 "2003-06-04T14:27:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_E_Dec_Esq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/1 "2003-06-04T14:27:53Z")
When I think of Cockney, it is the manner of speech spoken by Eliza Doolitle and her father in **My Fair Lady**. Is this accent still found today? I do not recall ever hearing a legitimate (for-real) Cockney or seeing a Cockney character in a movie set later than 1970. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/2 "2003-06-04T14:33:19Z")
To be classed as ‘cockney’ you need to have been born within the sound of Bow bells (Bow being an area in East London, the bells being from the church) so yes Cockney is spoken by anyone born in that area although it has changed a bit from Eliza Doolittles day. Cockney rhyming slang however is spoken by loads of people who like to chuck in an amusing rhyme into everyday language. Going to the bar? Get the Britney Spears in! ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/3 "2003-06-04T14:35:56Z")
Oh yeah to see a Cockney on screen you could always watch ‘Eastenders’, a grim soap opera from Britain - its full of the scamps. Check out [www.bbc.com](http://www.bbc.com). Enjoy! ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/4 "2003-06-04T14:38:18Z")
Yes, it is, but true cockney is in decline (there are many different London accents, which might sound the same to someone not from the city) being replace by “Estuary English” which is a bastardization of cockney/the general London accent, but defintely still extant among the “costermongers” of London markets. MC, born in London, but quite away from the Bow Bells. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/5 "2003-06-04T14:42:07Z")
WILLASS, Bow is not an area in East London. The church is Saint Mary-le-Bow which is in the City of London (the very centre of London). ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/6 "2003-06-04T14:48:29Z")
Is there a “true” cockney accent? I always though that the very definition of a “cockney” accent - since it is the manner of speech of those born within the sound of Bow Bells (this includes me on a quiet day with the wind in the right direction), then I guess it will always remain. The sort of Dickensian “you’re a gentleman and no mistake, I’m werry werry pleased to go up the apples and pears for you”, died out long ago as the accent evolved, as all accents do. Unless of course there’s a particular definition of which I am unaware. Rhyming Slang is still common, and not just in London. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@Francis\_E\_Dec\_Esq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_E_Dec_Esq)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/7 "2003-06-04T14:49:50Z")
Are there any films that feature modern Cockney? For extra credit, does Michael Caine’s accent have a name? That’s one accent I’ve never been able to successfully mimic. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/8 "2003-06-04T14:51:55Z")
jjimm, you’ll find that most of the young people in the traditional cockney area don’t have a true cockney accent, but if you chat to a ‘Pearly King/Queen’ then you’ll defintely recognize the accent. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/9 "2003-06-04T14:53:03Z")
Seeing as the Cockney accent is dictated by the people who are born within the sound of Bow bells, and judging by the amount of extremeley pricey developments going up in that area owned by swanky city types, maybe in the forseeable future Cockney will actually be more of an Etonian twang? ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/10 "2003-06-04T14:57:45Z")
Actually, **MC** , Bow _is_ an area in East London, just north of Stepney ([map](http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=537060&y=182970&z=3&sv=537500,182500&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf)). You are right about St Mary le Bow church, though, which is the origin of the “Bow bells” saying. It’s on Cheapside in the City, near St Paul’s Cathedral and about three miles from Bow. ([map](http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=532398&y=181132&z=1&sv=532250,181250&st=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf)) Confusingly, there’s a St Mary’s church in Bow, too. FWIW, lots of Londoners, myself included, use the odd bit of rhyming slang, but usually in a fairly ironic or in-jokey way (viz “You’re ‘avin’ a Turkish, mate!”) ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/11 "2003-06-04T15:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francis E Dec, Esq \* > \*\*Are there any films that feature modern Cockney? > > For extra credit, does Michael Caine’s accent have a name? That’s one accent I’ve never been able to successfully mimic. \*\* Well Micheal Caine’s accent IS pretty much Cockney (he wasn’t born to far away from the Bow Bells and his father was a market Porter, the traditional Cockney job), admittedly his style of speaking is pretty unique tho. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/12 "2003-06-04T15:05:07Z")
Even this very day, I went out and sausaged a Gregory on me kidney punch. What? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/13 "2003-06-04T15:06:53Z")
Anyone know some amusing new slang? When I get off the dog i’m going for a Brad so hopefully there will be some here by the time I get back. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/14 "2003-06-04T15:08:12Z")
ah right, never actually heard of Bow, I’m from Greenwich y’see. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/15 "2003-06-04T15:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francis E Dec, Esq \* > \*\*Are there any films that feature modern Cockney? > > For extra credit, does Michael Caine’s accent have a name? That’s one accent I’ve never been able to successfully mimic. \*\* Caine’s accent doesn’t have a seperate name, but he was born in Rotherhithe (definitely within the sound of the Bow bells). His dad was a porter in Billingsgate Fish Market, so you can’t get any more cockney than that. Perhaps I ought to add that nobody in London has ever spoken like Audrey Hepburn in that film, but that’s just a nitpick about an elegant Begian actress’s attempt at a strangulated urban accent in her second language. ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/16 "2003-06-04T15:20:21Z")
**MC** is right - “Estuary English” is probably the standard these days. This is largely because populations are more transitory and the chances of someone staying within one particular region long enough to pick up a very specific accent are minimal. These days i’ve noticed that when people say “cockney” they tend to mean “Londoner” too, rather than the very specific “someone who was born within the sound of bow bells” “Londoners” generally have some kind of bastardised accent - i.e. elements of a London/Cockney twang coupled with elements from other accents they have been exposed to. It’s still recognisably “London” but nowhere near the “cockney” you are probably thinking of. If you are interested then you can listen to what i sound like (As well as a number of other dopers including **jjimm** ) [here](http://www.geocities.com/voiceofthetm/index.htm). - I’ve lived in various parts of London for a large chunk of my life (including time within the sound of bow bells 😉 ) but i was born in the Home Counties (which gave me what you might call a “classic” english accent\*). Don’t forget as well that the cockney accents exhibited in films - think Dick Van Dyke in _Mary Poppins_ or Audry Hepburn in _My Fair Lady_ - are often put on and exagerated and need to be taken with a large pinch of salt. [sub]\*footnote for the brits: i live in a permament state of fear that i’ll one day end up sounding like jamie oliver. :eek: [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/17 "2003-06-04T15:23:45Z")
Dick Van Dykes accent was so badly ridiculed it sent him into a spiral of depression which lasted until he re-surfaced as Doc Sloane in Diagnosis Murder…poor lamb. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/18 "2003-06-04T15:27:20Z")
Slight hijack: in the early 1960’s, when MGM was about to make the film version of “My Fair Lady,” the studio chiefs weren’t sold on Rex Harrison as the star. He was respected as a good actor, but wasn’t regarded as a bankable star. So, legend has it, they contacted Cary Grant (who was now semi-retired, and would soon stop making movies altogether), and offered him the role. Legend has it that Grant replied with amusement, “What you don’t seem to understand is, I have the very accent Eliza Doolittle is supposed to be trying to get rid of!” ---
**Author:** ![garius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e19b73/32.png) [@garius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garius)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/19 "2003-06-04T15:29:18Z")
At least he never had to worry about money. He knew that even if he had to give up acting there was always the chimney sweep business. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600/20 "2003-06-04T15:35:57Z")
With regard to films with cockneys in after 1970 i’d say there is an overabundance of films with mockney geezers in them that have come out in recent years - ‘Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels’ being one (its set in South London so are they Cockney?) and ‘ID’ being the better of the many, many London gangster films to come out since 1970. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cockney-still-spoken/179600.md?page=2)