# Is Coerced Conversion to Buddhism Unknown to History? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 11, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425 "2013-04-11T17:41:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/42 "2013-04-23T04:59:27Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > [International News | Latest World News, Videos & Photos -ABC News - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/International/...4#.UXT8GbWG18E) > Now I know you are engaging in awesome religious logic of “we know these guys aren’t The Real Buddhists because The Real Buddhists don’t kill people, therefore this can’t be an example of The Real Buddhists killing people.” “Killing people” is not the same as “Forcing them from their homes”. I don’t endorse the latter, but you’ve repeated a false claim a couple of times now. Furthermore, it’s the government of Myanmar that did that. This isn’t unlike laying responsibility for Stalin’s 10 million deaths at the feet of the atheists. Let’s consider the evidence: [QUOTE=ABC News] Another scene showed a young Muslim man who had tried to flee being forced out of a thicket of green reeds and beaten by an angry crowd that included a Buddhist monk who was armed with a stick. [/QUOTE] So in an angry crowd, we have a single Buddhist monk with a stick. More seriously: The report detailed how officials from the powerful Rakhine Nationalities Development Party, as well as Buddhist monks, publically vilified the Rohingya after the June riots. They encouraged segregation, the boycott of Muslim businesses, and described the Rohingya living among them as a threat to the state. “These groups and others issued numerous anti-Rohingya pamphlets and public statements, explicitly or implicitly denying the existence of the Rohingya ethnicity, demonizing them, and calling for their removal from the country, at times using the phrase ‘ethnic cleansing,’” Human Rights Watch said. “The statements frequently were released in connection with organized meetings and in full view of local, state, and national authorities who raised no concerns.” Again, this is principally a governmental action, one taken by a notoriously despotic regime. That said, the wise cracks about True Scotsmen et al are spot-on. And Rahula’s claim has been falsified. * * * Another example of non-peaceable Buddhists: see Civil War, Sri Lankan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/43 "2013-04-23T05:06:28Z")
Perhaps a better question might be, “Is coerced **successful** conversion to Buddhism unknown to history?” ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/44 "2013-04-23T05:10:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why, the better way than that is the Euro-Christian way: Guilt-trip them into believing that they will deserve **and get** something better in a “future life,” if only they will accept and embrace and repent of (but never rebel against!) the guilt! 🙂 Interesting thing, though, is that at least from the Middle Ages onward, in the West the Church often acted as an antagonist to secular power; whereas in China any such rival center of authority would be simply inconceivable\*. Up to the advent of the Christian missionaries, religious authority required the explicit sanction of the state–and this is a pattern that the modern Chinese government still attempts to emulate today, FWIW. Ruling classes have always used religion to keep the mob in line, but I think it’s interesting that in China religion was used much more as an explicit tool of the state. \*unless in the context of rebellion or civil war, which is also a recurring theme in Chinese history. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/45 "2013-04-23T05:30:22Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Interesting thing, though, is that at least from the Middle Ages onward, in the West the Church often acted as an antagonist to secular power; whereas in China any such rival center of authority would be simply inconceivable\* \*Up to the advent of Buddhism. Which did cause Chinese secular authorities quite a lot of trouble, when it was new there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/46 "2013-04-23T05:32:59Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > \*unless in the context of rebellion or civil war, which is also a recurring theme in Chinese history. Which is why I am tempted to understand if not forgive the PRC for its treatment of the Falun Gong. There are a **lot** of examples in Chinese history – even in the past three centuries, which is yesterday by Chinese standards – of a religious movement evolving into a political/dynastic rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/47 "2013-04-23T05:48:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > \*Up to the advent of Buddhism. Which did cause Chinese secular authorities quite a lot of trouble, when it was new there. :dubious: I’m not sure what kind of trouble you’re referring to, but this would be an event contemporary with the height of the Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/48 "2013-04-23T05:53:30Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > :dubious: I’m not sure what kind of trouble you’re referring to, but this would be an event contemporary with the height of the Roman Empire. And nearly (but not nearly quite) equivalent to the introduction of Christianity to the Roman Empire. I say “not nearly quite” because Chinese civilization (1) never fell **because of** Buddhism and (2) never actually fell at all and (3) always was able to absorb it and remain essentially Chinese, while Western civilization quite sadly failed to remain both Christian and Classical. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/49 "2013-04-23T06:20:06Z")
I couldn’t give any incidents of it off the top of my head, except perhaps with the Hill Tribes of Thailand and Myanmar (and even then, it’s more just the sort of thing that I assume they’d be doing), but even as a practicing, sincere Buddhist, I have come to grips with the fact that: - We are total bastards, just the same as everyone else. - The first time that regular people started believing that holy monks understood right from wrong, the rich and powerful have always cozied up to those holy monks in order to legitimize them. We’ve been in this business for over 2,000 years, and we’re still involved in it. This brings with it all the dogmatic and political nastiness that it would entail elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/50 "2013-04-23T15:58:24Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Interesting thing, though, is that at least from the Middle Ages onward, in the West the Church often acted as an antagonist to secular power; whereas in China any such rival center of authority would be simply inconceivable\*. Up to the advent of the Christian missionaries, religious authority required the explicit sanction of the state–and this is a pattern that the modern Chinese government still attempts to emulate today, FWIW. Ruling classes have always used religion to keep the mob in line, but I think it’s interesting that in China religion was used much more as an explicit tool of the state. > > \*unless in the context of rebellion or civil war, which is also a recurring theme in Chinese history. This isn’t true though; there was, in fact, some “official” Chinese resistance to Buddhism, outside the context of rebel movements. > **[Three Táng Dynasty Memorials Against Buddhism (Bilingual)](https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/faanfor/AntiBuddhistMemorials.html)** > > Three Memorials Condemning Buddhism by Tang Dynasty Scholar-Officials Fu Yi, Yao Chong, and Han Yu in English and Chinese ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/51 "2013-04-25T07:40:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Scotsman who can be described is not the true Scotsman. A monk asked Tozan, “What is the Buddha ?”. Tozan replied, “Three wee pints o’ whiskey”. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/52 "2013-04-25T08:34:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This isn’t true though; there was, in fact, some “official” Chinese resistance to Buddhism, outside the context of rebel movements. > > [Three Táng Dynasty Memorials Against Buddhism (Bilingual)](http://anthro.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/faanfor/AntiBuddhistMemorials.html) No, don’t think so. I’m not so familiar with that era, but going by what you linked here–three memorials by lower officials submitted _to_ the emperor urging him not to be so welcoming to Buddhism, and unsuccessfully at that–is irrelevant what I was asserting, that under the imperial system it would be impossible for Buddhists themselves to set up a rival center of authority _in opposition to_ the emperor. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/53 "2013-04-25T13:02:46Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > No, don’t think so. I’m not so familiar with that era, but going by what you linked here–three memorials by lower officials submitted _to_ the emperor urging him not to be so welcoming to Buddhism, and unsuccessfully at that–is irrelevant what I was asserting, that under the imperial system it would be impossible for Buddhists themselves to set up a rival center of authority _in opposition to_ the emperor. The three memorialists are cited as influences on widespread government suppression of Buddhism under the T’ang. From the website: > [@](#): > > From the time of the first entry of Buddhism into China it has had critics, often very passionate ones. Both the flowering of Buddhism and the explosion of anti-Buddhist sentiment came to a head in the Táng 唐 dynasty (period 12, 618-907) and finally resulted in widespread suppression of Buddhism during the reign of the Emperor Wǔzōng 武宗 (reign 12a-18, AD 840-846). (Click here for a summary of the political events associated with the suppression of Buddhism in the Táng.) The reasons often cited are - that Buddhism was growing too powerful as an institution, thus taking away imperial authority (and removing people from the imperial economy in the form of widespread monasticsim). This is not something totally unfamiliar or alien to the European context … More: > [@](#): > > Seeing abuses and correcting them against the momentum of established interests was, as today, difficult unto impossible, even for a totalitarian monarch. One of the obvious troubles of the Chinese state was the enormous power of the eunuchs, to be sure. But another was the enormous power, both political and economic, of the Buddhist clergy, to whom pious emperors over a long period had granted lands and tax-free privileges of many kinds. And unlike the eunuchs, the establishment Buddhists tended to have popular support. It was to the powerful and pragmatic Emperor Xiànzōng that Hán Yù 韩愈 in 819 directed his unsuccessful memorial. > > … > > When they brought the sixteen-year-old Emperor Wǔzōng 武宗 (reign 12a-18) to the throne in 840, the eunuchs probably got a lot more than they bargained for. For one thing, he forced Qiú Shìliáng into retirement and dismantled his political machine. In the interest of promoting Confucian orthodoxy, he had the Canon inscribed in stone at the imperial academy. But he also became more and more attracted to Daoism, and especially to elixirs of immortality. > > In 842 he launched an attack upon institutional Buddhism, stimulated in part by his affection for Daoism (and no doubt for various court Daoists) and in part by the fact that his predecessors had allowed a large part — some say about 40% — of the country’s land to fall into the hands of untaxable monasteries. > > Wǔzōng’s attack began with an attempt to outlaw all religions other than Daoism. By 842, all Buddhist monks and nuns under the age of 50 were ordered to return to lay life, taking “real jobs,” marrying, producing children, and paying taxes. > > In 845 tens of thousands of additional Buddhist clerics were sent back to lay life, and only one Buddhist monastery was to be allowed per city. (Small numbers of other religious institutions also existed in China — Jews, Zoroastrians, and Nestorian Christians all had a presence, and they too were ordered to shut down.) > > The persecutions are now believed to have dealt Chinese Buddhism a blow from which it never really recovered. And perhaps it would have been extinguished completely if Wǔzōng had reigned longer. [Emphasis added] The guy is not exactly a Chinese Henry VIII, but his motives were in some ways similar - crush the tax-sapping, authority-defying Buddhist establishment … 😃 The persecution is said to have had permanent effects: Buddhism obviously survived ant thrived in China, but the Buddhist clergy and establishment never again formed a powerful, tax-free block. > **[Jordan: Tang Dynasty Persecutions of Buddhism](https://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/faanfor/TarngPersecutions.html)** > > Quick overview of the persecution of Buddhism in China's Tang dynasty ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425/54 "2013-04-25T14:01:11Z")
In that case, I think you and I are arguing the same point: a separate focus of temporal authority in China would simply not be tolerated as it was in Europe from the early Middle Ages onward. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-coerced-conversion-to-buddhism-unknown-to-history/655425.md?page=2)