Is Colin Powell borrowing what is probably his most famous quote?

“I have to ask, do you have some personal relation to Mark Clark? The man was an incompetent butcher of the highest caliber, placing the lives of his men beneath his desire to make the front page. He deserves all of the scorn that history has placed on him…” --Dissonance

Sorry, but I regard that not as an objective assertion of historical fact, but a controversial interpretation you present as settled history to support a nuclear attack on Clark’s character. Your recital of this is not a bland assertion of history but a strong point of view, even when backed by cited evidence. You cannot claim that such a strongly negative view of a man with Clark’s record is THE final historical word on the matter (Eisenhower hand picked Clark, promoted him, and supported him repeatedly throughout the war).

When you ask me if I have some relationship to Clark, that sounds personal, like a challenge to defend Clark if I disagree with you. Of course, I have no connection to Clark whatsoever, other than having read his account of his service in World War II.

“Great Debates” is the right place for this; the problem is that I’m not as intently interested in this issue as you are. Your point that Clark got a bad reputation in the Italian campaign, particularly from the Cassino/Anzio battle, culminating in the capture of Rome, is valid (minus full explanation of the difficult circumstances that surrounded it). I also agree that he overruled his British commander, Alexander, in giving up pursuit of the retreating Germans and taking Rome instead, that he played to the media, and that he fudged on it a bit in his book to put the best face on this decision.

I have an entirely different understanding about WHY he did all of these things, however, taken from both his own account and from Eisenhower’s “Crusade in Europe.” I find his reasoning, which he reports in detail, valid in the difficult context in which it occurred.

Wartime decisions are messy. Different commanders take the same elements and come to differing conclusions on how to proceed. There are few flawless campaigns. Command in war requires results; no excuses are accepted. In my view, if you get it basically right, handle your resources well, and have the required strength and energy, you have a chance to get those results.

Some mix of ego, strong disagreement, and command politics is always present in war (consider the circus dramas of Napoleon’s court of marshals). In close paraphrase, General MacArthur said of Eisenhower, “Best clerk I ever had.” Eisenhower once replied to a reporter’s question, “Do I know General MacArthur? I studied dramatics under him for three years.” The Germans were as bad. Field Marshal Von Rundstedt once remarked of a rival, “Field Marshal Model would make an EXCELLENT regimental sergeant major.” It doesn’t surprise me, then, that Clark had bitter detractors among his staff, subordinates, and wartime superiors, exacerbated, no doubt, by the bitterness of the Italian campaign.

Eisenhower had two great worries as Supreme Commander: working effectively with our allies (which is why an American army was in Italy: it was a British demand, run on a shoestring), and keeping U.S. casualties to the absolute minimum, given the demands of winning the war. He kept Clark in command in Italy to the end of the war; post-war, Clark was entrusted with command in politically-sensitive Austria. If Clark been a “vainglorious” media hound, arbitrary in defying his British superior, and “a butcher” to boot, in the manner claimed, Eisenhower would have replaced him and sent him home. Eisenhower also kept on the repeatedly controversial General Patton, knowing he would produce needed results at an acceptable cost when unleashed.

It might be interesting to compare Clark’s campaign losses and bloody-minded determination to that of U.S. Grant in the final campaign to take Richmond, from “The Wilderness” to the trenchlines at Petersburg. The three disastrous charges on entrenched Confederate works at Cold Harbor might be particularly apt. Prior to the third, U.S. soldiers were pinning bits of paper to their tunics with their names and the addresses of next-of-kin. I seem to recall that Grant later said the only thing in the entire war he regretted was ordering that third attack at Cold Harbor. Richmond fell at the end of this bloody and controversial campaign (Lincoln nearly lost re-election over the casualties). After securing Richmond, Grant pursued the Confederate army in earnest, cutting it off near Appomattox Court House. This successful bloodbath is considered one of the great campaigns in American military history. Just food for thought.

Regarding the authority of congressional investigations: I seem to remember that Congress officially found at least one other gunman was present at the JFK assassination in Dallas. Yet, no massive search has begun to uncover the identity of this presidential assassin. Congress most often puts an official stamp on political hot air; it is not an ideal finder of fact.

If readers want a good beginning account of the campaign in Italy, read Clark’s “Calculated Risk.” It is quite clear in it’s explanations, and has some of the best visual illustrations, in the form of understandable maps, that I have seen in a military history. Judge the man for yourself from his own words, then read his critics for additional dimension.

It’s not a controversial interpretation, read up on the man. He is pretty well universally regarded in the best of light as a very poor strategist. At best it might be a strong point of view, and it is backed by cited evidence, which you have done nothing to disprove. “Eisenhower hand picked him” doesn’t grant him immunity from having been a bad pick.

I asked because you appear to have initially had a very distorted view of him, giving him credit for accomplishments he had nothing to do with; see the capture of Monte Cassino. Monte Cassino finally fell to the Poles who were under the command of British 8th Army, not Clark’s 5th. His only ‘contribution’ to Monte Cassino was the disastrous failed crossing of the Rapido. Everyone involved from the level of squad leader to corps commander knew it was going to fail, and fail bloodily. The entire crossing area was under observation by the Germans who held the high ground including a fortified village. The soldiers of the 36th would have to hand carry their boats and bridging equipment over two miles of ground before even reaching the river. They couldn’t position it any closer before the assault because the Germans would have seen it. They were under heavy mortar and artillery fire long before even reaching the river. Both the commanders of 36th Division and II Corps personally told Clark it would be a bloodbath and recommended shifting the crossing area to the 34th Division sector, where it was later successfully crossed. After the first day’s failed attempt to cross on the 20th of January, Clark order the attack to continue on the 21st, with the same results.

In the face of all of this evidence you said I was “beating up on Clark as a military leader (undeserved).” I asked if you were of some relation to him as I can’t understand either why you have such a glowing opinion of him or why you are so personally attached to this opinion of him.

That is putting an incredible amount of spin on things. If your opinion of him is gleamed from his memoirs, it’s no surprise you have such a distorted view of his abilities and accomplishments. Had the commander of 15th Army Group been an American general rather than a British one, Clark would have been sacked on the spot for disobeying orders. You don’t ‘overrule’ your commanding officer, the word is disobedience. You’ll note Truscott, the commander of VI Corps was so bewildered by the order that he refused to carry it out without talking to Clark first, who had conveniently made himself unavailable. It made absolutely no military sense, and undermined the entirety of the plan for Operation Diadem.

Care to explain what this understanding is? Taking it from his own memoirs is a very bad idea. It’s not surprising you’d have a different idea of things, but I wouldn’t call it an understanding. From the last cite:

Again, a horrible idea. It’s hard for him to explain his decisions for the disaster at Rapido when he refuses to even mention it. His actual explanation, oddly, was that it had to take place when and where it was planned because of Alexander’s orders. Odd because 1) he had no problem disobeying Alexander and undermining the entirety of Operation Diadem later and 2) because Alexander had a very light touch approach to leadership and would have had no problem with the crossing effort being shifted to 34th Division’s sector. If anything this was a weakness of Alexander’s leadership style, he use too much of a light touch. This, of course, goes back to Clark’s general Anglophobia. As I mentioned, his tirades about his situation at Salerno being Montgomery’s fault continued even post war where he continued to blame Montgomery in post war interviews. And of course, his reason for abandoning his assigned role in Diadem was in order to take Rome before the British could steal it from him.

In closing, I’ll note that you have done nothing to contradict anything I’ve said, prove that any of it was hyperbole, or for that matter actually explain why you hold Clark in such high regard. All you do is allude to explanations for his incredibly poor strategic decision that you gained from his and Eisenhower’s memoirs; you have not actually said what they are. Your entire post boils down to a longwinded version of “You’re wrong, but I’m not going to waste time telling you why.”

I’m not exactly sure what Powell’s quote is supposed to mean, but the same sort of sentiment is expressed in numerous sources other than Clark’s writing. The first three lines of the Brooke poem The Soldier are instantly familiar to any student of British literature:

OK, I’ve waited two weeks, and the thread has already been derailed by the argument about Clark, so I will now ask:

Isn’t that a mind-bogglingly stupid quote, considering that the US began as a strip of land along the Atlantic coast? There were obvious exceptions, but didn’t most of the wars fought by the US result in the annexation of territory?

It is on par with “Let them eat cake” and “I can see Russia from my house” - it’s not a real quote so who cares. The actual response contains this:

Powell went to the WEF at Davos in 2003 and gave a speech that touched on Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Israel/Palestine, etc., in support of the administration’s goals for each issue. The US was at a low-water mark in popularity and Powell was Secretary of State. Given the job, given the context, anything he said was far from being stupid.

Well, really, I can’t let such a gross misstatement of fact go uncorrected. Here we have a prime example of why I won’t get roped into debating things like this with those who clearly have some stake in them beyond an interest in history. I think I now understand better the first posting by “Tee.”

In “Dissonance’s” last post, he supplies this quote, emphasized in bold but without attribution:
“General Clark, who never referred to the Rapido River disaster in any public utterances after the war or in his memoirs, was not required to testify and never officially responded to any of the charges leveled.”

This is a mix of one factual untruth and three highly misleading statements.

Clark devotes nearly a dozen pages in his popular 1950 book, “Calculated Risk,” to describing the Rapido River battle of January, 1944, with particular emphasis on the action involving the 36th Division and illustrated with maps. He also directly addresses, for several pages, the controversy that exploded post-war (after he was given overall command in Italy, promoted, and later made commander in occupied Austria), culminating in the congressional hearing pushed by former members of the 36th Division in Texas.

Clark gives the facts of the military situation in January, 1944, and the planning decisions leading up to the battle, followed by his account of the battle itself in some detail. He also cites the full public support he got during the post-war controversy from generals Alexander and Wilson, his superiors at the time, in affirming that he was not culpable for the beating taken by the 36th division in this fight. Lastly, Clark reproduces in full an official letter written by then secretary-of-war, Robert Patterson, addressed to the chairman of the congressional Committee on Military Affairs investigating Clark. This letter clears Clark of all the charges made against him over the Rapido River offensive, and is the official position of the U.S. War Department to Congress, by request, following the Department’s review of all of the facts. Clark adds further details in his book about the official casualty figures of the 36th Division vs. those claimed by his detractors, and compares the casualties of the 36th to other units in the battle. He points out that many soldiers who went missing in action later returned. He finishes this chapter on the Rapido/Garigliani Front January offensive by strongly praising the valor of the 36th Infantry Division, which continued to serve to the end of the Anzio campaign and aided in the capture of Rome.

Clark further says this about his response when the trouble broke in post-war Washington: “When these charges were brought before Congress, I asked General Eisenhower, who then was Chief of Staff, to permit me to return home from Vienna and answer them, but he felt it was not necessary.”

All of this information is in chapter 12 of my copy of Clark’s book: “Calculated Risk,” Mark W. Clark, Harper & brothers, New York, 1950, First Edition, hardbound, pages 271 - 282.

Which brings me to the final comment by “Dissonance,” responding to my suggestion that Dopers who have any interest whatsoever in this issue should first read Clark’s book, then Carlo D’este’s criticism.

“Dissonance” replied that reading Clark’s account is “a horrible idea,” because: “it’s hard for him [Clark] to explain his decisions for the disaster at Rapido when he refuses to even mention it.” In fact, as cited, Clark said a great deal about it in his memoir, his superiors, Alexander and Wilson, publicly supported him, the U.S. Secretary of War officially answered the charges before the Congressional committee, exonerating him completely following an investigation by the War Department, and Chief of Staff Eisenhower told him to ignore it and concentrate on his duties in occupied Austria, nose-to-nose with the Russians.

What more was there to say, then or now, 70 years later?

Well, perhaps, it is worthwhile to add a personal note Clark received just after the make-or-break crisis at Anzio.

"Dear Wayne,

In all the years I have known you, I have never been prouder of you than during the past strenuous weeks. Despite every difficulty, you are obviously doing a grand job of leadership with your chin up. I read the fine message you recently sent to your troops. Together with men like Al [Gruenther] and Truscott, you are writing history that Americans will always read with pride.

Ike."

…and a list of Clark’s decorations (not counting nine campaign medals in three wars):

–Distinguished Service Cross (pinned on him by Roosevelt at Sicily)
–Army Distinguished Service Medal with oak leaf cluster
–Navy Distinguished Service Medal
–Legion of Merit
–Bronze Star
–Purple Heart
–Order of the Crown, Grand Officer (Belgium)
–Order of the Southern Cross, Grand Officer (Brazil)
–Order of the White Lion, First Class (Czechoslovak Socialist Republic)
–Legion d’honneur, Grand Cross (France)
–Military Order of Savoy, Grand Cross (Italy) (along with two others)
–Order Wojenny Virtuti Militari, Krzyz Srebrny/Silver Cross (Poland)
–Order of Ouissam Alaouite, Grand Cross - First Class (Morocco)
–Order of Suvorov, First Class (USSR)

…and last but not least:

–Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom)

This. I’ve heard the same sentiment phrased in different ways many times. Maybe it started with Clark, maybe he borrowed it from someone else.

Oh? What stake do you imagine I have in this beyond history?

This is blindingly untrue, it is clearly attributed to the last cite I used. You’ll notice right before quoting it, I said “From the last cite:”

As noted, there is no factual untruth, it isn’t unattributed, you just failed to notice the attribution. None of the statements are highly misleading either.

The controversy didn’t explode post war. Does he make any mention of the fact that both the commanders of the 36th Division and II Corps advised him against it as it was going to be a bloodbath? Does he note that the plan required the soldiers crossing two miles of ground under directed artillery and mortar fire while carrying boats and bridging equipment before they could even begin the crossing?

Does he mention that all of his subordinates in the operation advised against it as a clear plan for disaster? That they recommended conducting the operation in the 34th Division sector instead? That the main effort could also have been shifted to 46th Division but he refused to consider it, as the 46th was the British 46th Division, and as far as he was concerned the British were only to have a supporting role in the operation, military necessity or sense be damned?

Of course the War Department wasn’t going to throw him under the bus. The point is he is the only general in US history to be the subject of a Congressional hearing for military incompetence. Instigated by his own men, the ones he goes on to praise.

The valor of the 36th was never in question. The stupidity of wrecking the division in two days of battle that it stood no chance of winning is, however, what is in question. From Walker, commander of II Corps diary on the eve of the battle:

It’s quite distasteful that he praises the valor of the 36th Division, when they were the ones who got congress to investigate him for decimating them. Even more so for his praising them in aiding in the capture of Rome, his other major inexcusable fuck up that allowed the German 10th Army to escape and go on continuing killing his men for another year. At least he got his glory for taking Rome before his imaginary fears of the British wanting to steal it from him never happened.

Really? You don’t see how having the objectivity of passing years and the availability of previously unavailable sources could result in more to say? You don’t see how someone’s personal memoirs aren’t going to be an objective view of what happened, never mind that they are often self-serving? If one were to rely on Manstein’s Lost Victories one would conclude that everything that went wrong with the war for Germany was Hitler’s fault, even the things that weren’t. One would also conclude that Manstein was on the verge of winning at Kursk when Hitler called the operation off, a ludicrous conclusion but one that Mantein held. It might also interest you to know that D’Este’s book is a history of the campaign, not a criticism of Clark. D’Este admires him for his physical bravery, but it is impossible for him to avoid the conclusion that he was an extremely poor strategist, that Rapido was a doomed operation whose failure lays squarely at Clark’s feet, that he allowed German 10th Army to escape for the sole purpose of feeding his ego and Anglophobic fears that they British would try to cheat him of his prize of Rome, or that his exact word to Lucas before Anzio were “Don’t stick your neck out, Johnny,” Clark told Lucas. “I did at Salerno and got into trouble.”

Again, it’s truly ironic that you include a letter praising him and Truscott, considering that Truscott openly blamed the failure of Diadem to destroy the German 10th Army, the entire point of the operation, squarely on Clark’s shoulders, and rightfully so. It was Clarks order for Truscott to turn his Corps 135 degrees away from its planned objective and head for Rome that derailed the entire operation.

Listing off the fruit salad Clark acquired during his career isn’t very pertinent, and yet again, you have avoided actually explaining his incredibly poor strategic decisions at Rapido and during Diadem, or for that matter addressed his Anglophobia.

They did make him commander in Korea after Ridgway. He did ok there.

And while I do not dispute the whole Rapido River thing, I must confess that IIRC Rome was done for political reasons, they wanted an Axis capital, they got it.

As for Anglophobia, that was a US Armed forces wide thing and it had BAD consequences. Clark’s decisions are less delatarious than the ignoring the advice on Hedgerows and 352nd Division.

Rome was done for Clark’s personal vanity in complete defiance of his commanding officer, the plan, and any military sense. See Operation Diadem.

See also the comments by Gen. Truscott, the commander of VI Corps about this order given earlier in the thread. Had Clark followed his orders and stuck to the plan, Tenth Army would have been surrounded and forced to surrender. Rome would subsequently have fallen with ease, and was clearly marked as being in Clark’s 5th Army’s Area of Operations. The irrational fear that the British would try to steal his glory by taking Rome was a clear example of his Anglophobia; the fear existed only in his mind, there was no British plan to steal Rome from him, and it had already been agreed that Rome was in the 5th Army’s AO, not the 8th Army. Putting Rome in 8th Army’s AO would make absolutely no sense at all anyway; it would mean the 8th Army’s AO would be the entire width of the Italian peninsula, leaving no room for 5th Army at all.

There was a good deal of Anglophobia throughout the US Services, but Clark’s was very extreme, and it’s results were far more horrendous than others. Again, see upthread, the escape of Tenth Army allowed them to continue to set up effective defensive lines in the ideally suited terrain of Italy, first a delaying line at the Tasimene/Albert Line and then a solid defensive line in the Gothic Line. Had Tenth Army’s divisions been destroyed as per the plan of Diadem, fully half of the German order of battle in Italy would have ceased to exist.

I’m unsure what you mean by the hedgerows and the 352nd Division; the hedgerows were as problematic for Commonwealth forces as they were for US forces, and both Allies had failed to appreciate the difficulties they would present or placed any serious thought into how to deal with them beforehand. I’m unaware of any Anglophobia relating to the 352nd Division; the problem was Allied intelligence still had it located at St. Lo and were unaware that it had moved forward to the beaches where US troops landing at Omaha would be landing right on top of it.