# Is Common Wisdom post 9-11 Actually 'Wise'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2002, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660 "2002-08-26T18:16:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/181 "2002-08-31T19:54:41Z")
**december** : Close, but not quite. Yes, I would probably choose #3, though my actual modifications you might find surprisingly mild and more in line with a more thoughtful approach to the region, rather than major policy switches ( i.e. I think the U.S. should continue to support Israel and safeguard the strategically sensitive Persian Gulf - perhaps the manner in which it does those things could be altered, but that’s an argument for a different thread ). However it does not follow from thinking that al-Qaeda’s hatred is totally legitimate. Quite the contrary, I don’t think it is. I’m really not at all concerned with al-Qaeda, who are unconvincible, but rather with opinion on the street. As I said there may be some overlap, but most Arabs aren’t fanatical terrorists. Very few are. But bad feelings on the street transforms into unwarranted shows of support for criminals. Rather like the murderous James Gang was sheltered by normal, upstanding folks in their home county because they robbed hated instituitions. Better propaganda means there are fewer places for al-Qaeda to hide and makes it harder for them to recruit and brainwash the disaffected ( they’ll still get their quota of lunatics anyway, unfortunately ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/182 "2002-08-31T19:57:12Z")
To clarify - Overlap in terms of why terrorists and normal people are disgruntled. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/183 "2002-08-31T20:18:04Z")
Thank you, **Tamerlane** and **Sam Stone** , for joining the debate. > [@](#): > > _from **Sam Stone** :_ > If you don’t [advocate US withdrawal from the region and abandonment of Israel], then all this vague talk about America’s actions causing all this is disingenuous. The question is, were those actions CORRECT? Forget about other stuff, like propping up the Saudi regime or cutting oil deals with other Gulf states. _Bin Laden doesn’t care about that!._ **Sam Stone** , what bin Laden cares about has _never_ been the point. The point, for me at least, is what are the policies which in the long run make the region --and the world-- more secure? Rather than asking “what does bin Laden want?” we ask “why is there support among Muslims for murderous perverters of Islam?” I think _even with propaganda and religious polemics_ directed against us, that much hate indicates at least that we’re not doing everything right. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/184 "2002-08-31T20:32:15Z")
**Tamerlane:** Okay, but you’re speaking in generalities again. You admit that Al-Qaida’s grievances would not have been addressed by any reasonable action the U.S. could have taken. You admit that Al-Qaida has a reasonably large swath of support in the Arab world. And yet, you claim that Americans should modify their behaviour in the world, in order to stop ‘Arab resentment’, and thus improve security. I don’t understand this point. It’s one thing to say, “I don’t agree with America’s position on X on moral grrounds, and I think they should stop doing that.”, and saying, “The Americans should stop doing X in order to prevent more attacks.” The first is a statement of YOUR values. The second is an unsupported assertion. Most people who make this claim invariably start talking about poverty, support of despots, feelings of hopelessness among Arabs, etc. The problem is, those are our values. I have seen very little evidence that these are the kinds of things that drive Arabs to hate the United States. Many of the most virulent America-haters come from the wealthier ranks of Arabs, and are direct beneficiaries of America’s dependence on their oil and support for their regimes. I tend to take people at their word. If you read the Arab press, or the stated words of Osama himself, America-hatred always seems to revolve around infidels vs muslims, American presence on sacred ground, and most importantly, the American support for the hated Jews. It’s only when I read western op-eds about the Arab world that stuff about poverty, equality, and democracy enter into the debate. A classic case of trying to judge our enemies not by their own values, but by ours. So I’ll ask the question again: IN PARTICULAR, what should America do differently in the Gulf, and what do you think its effect would be on the likelihood of terrorist attacks against Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/185 "2002-08-31T21:01:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > Okay, but you’re speaking in generalities again. You admit that Al-Qaida’s grievances would not have been addressed by any reasonable action the U.S. could have taken. Correct. > [@](#): > > You admit that Al-Qaida has a reasonably large swath of support in the Arab world. Hmmm…Not quite. Actually not at all, but I suppose it depends on how you define “support” and “large swath”. I understand why you interpreted my statements to mean that. But I think the real situation is more complex. > [@](#): > > And yet, you claim that Americans should modify their behaviour in the world, in order to stop ‘Arab resentment’, and thus improve security. Not stop, ameliorate. And maybe not a lot. Otherwise, yes. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand this point. It’s one thing to say, “I don’t agree with America’s position on X on moral grrounds, and I think they should stop doing that.”, Okay. > [@](#): > > and saying, “The Americans should stop doing X in order to prevent more attacks.” The first is a statement of YOUR values. The second is an unsupported assertion. As assertion I never made :). I’m not talking about preventing attacks per se, which may or may not be possible, but probably isn’t. I’m talking about decreasing tension by increasing mutual respect. > [@](#): > > Most people who make this claim invariably start talking about poverty, support of despots, feelings of hopelessness among Arabs, etc. The problem is, those are our values. I have seen very little evidence that these are the kinds of things that drive Arabs to hate the United States. Well, what can I say - I disagree. I think those are universal human values, not values particular to any given culture. > [@](#): > > Many of the most virulent America-haters come from the wealthier ranks of Arabs, and are direct beneficiaries of America’s dependence on their oil and support for their regimes. Many? I disagree here as well. A few. ObL is an exception, not the rule. Most elites in most Arab countries aren’t riddled with terrorist cells. A rather larger number are from the pious middle-class. Educated and disaffected precisely because they are educated enough to understand what people can achieve elsewhere, yet are still shut-out from the political process and blame the U.S. for, well, all sorts of things. The base continues to be, however, from the radicalized lumpen proletariat. There aren’t a lot of sons of rich men in Hamas or Hezbollah. > [@](#): > > I tend to take people at their word. If you read the Arab press, or the stated words of Osama himself, America-hatred always seems to revolve around infidels vs muslims, American presence on sacred ground, and most importantly, the American support for the hated Jews. Sure. In some cases that is all there is. But desperation can _exacerbate_ the situation by putting people in a mindset where they have nothing to lose and are more easily swayed by ideological demagogues. Was the American Communist Party ( and associated socialist movements ) at its peak during the Great Depression because of desperation or the appeal of a new ideology? I’d say both. > [@](#): > > It’s only when I read western op-eds about the Arab world that stuff about poverty, equality, and democracy enter into the debate. A classic case of trying to judge our enemies not by their own values, but by ours. Again, it really isn’t about “our enemies” to me. Not at all. I’m not looking to reform al-Qaeda. > [@](#): > > So I’ll ask the question again: IN PARTICULAR, what should America do differently in the Gulf, and what do you think its effect would be on the likelihood of terrorist attacks against Americans? I can’t answer the second because I haven’t a clue and I’ll have to think about the first, as unfortunately it is a complex problem and hopefully one to which smarter people than me are applying themselves. By the way I sometimes debate generalities because I don’t always have the specific answers ( if there are any ). I’m not ashamed of not being brilliant :). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2002, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/186 "2002-08-31T23:52:53Z")
**Tamerlane:** Actually, you’re probably the last guy I should have directed my comment to, because I actually find your position to be quite reasonable. Nevertheless, there are a lot of people going on about ‘root causes’ today, but I never hear anyone of them propose any alternate policies. Especially not any that would appear to have made a difference. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/187 "2002-09-01T01:30:14Z")
What sort of policy proposals were you looking for, **Sam**? Hopefully not specific, detailed recommendations; there _are_ a few Dopers who are qualified to do that, but most of us are neither regional experts nor diplomacy wonks. How about a few general foreign strategy bullets? [ul][li]No more “regime changes”. We suck at it, and it’s not part of the American idea I’m so hep on.[_]Be more participatory in (less obstructive of) international conflict resolution (International Criminal Court).[_]Play the arbiter between Israel and Palestine; we are not acting as Israel’s friend by giving blanket approval. We should continue to press for reform of the PA, but accompany that with all possible organizational assistance. A Palestinian Authority which was able to exert _actual_ authority would be a far more effective damper on extremism than extreme Israeli actions, which only tend to bolster it.[/ul][/li]I’d also like to see us try some different ways of administering humanitarian aid to try and keep from lining corrupt pockets; third party management, focus on logistical aid, etc. Sorry I don’t have any brilliant solutions in my pocket, **Sam** , but thankfully one doesn’t have to have all the answers to have an idea where the wrong ones are being offered. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/188 "2002-09-01T02:49:19Z")
Well, you don’t have to propose NEW policies. But which policies of the past do you think the U.S. engaged in which directly led to the 9/11 attack? I keep hearing people saying, “Our behaviour does not excuse what they did, but it does explain it.” Or words to that effect. So the question is, WHAT policies led to the attack, and what would you have done differently in the past? If we take Osama at his word, then essentially his problem is the Gulf War. So would you have let Hussein take Kuwait? Just how else could that situation have been resolved without raising the ire of al-Qaida? I just see this ‘root cause’ stuff to be just a bunch of muddy thinking. As for your other points… “No Regime Change”? How about Afghanistan? Do you think we should have just left the Taliban in power, and given Bin Laden a safe haven to build a powerful army of terrorists? How about Iraq? We should not seek regime change? Even if Saddam builds nuclear weapons and starts threatening his neighbors with them? Even if he invades Kuwait again? Just where are you willing to draw the line? As for playing the arbiter between Palestine and Israel… You realize the U.S. is doing exactly that, right? Are you saying the U.S. should do less supporting of Israel? If so, please be specific. Just what things should the U.S. do to ‘arbitrate’ between two parties that refuse to talk to each other? The problem with ‘arbitrating’ between the two is that neither Israel or the U.S. is willing to accept the destruction of Israel, and many Arabs will settle for nothing less. And I have to repeat: Osama never mentioned the Palestinians. What he DID mention was ‘reclaiming the al-Aqsa Mosque’. Are you advocating that the Israelis withdraw from Jerusalem? As for the ICC, that’s really a straw man in terms of the Middle East. It’s simply not an issue. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Arabs hate the idea of a world ‘criminal court’ made up of infidels much more than the U.S. does. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/189 "2002-09-01T04:52:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I keep hearing people saying, “Our behaviour does not excuse what they did, but it does explain it.” Or words to that effect. Look, only bin Laden’s pathology _explains_ the attacks. I don’t know (or care) who you’ve been hearing. The dialogue concerning American foreign policy should not bear as a consideration the thinking of bin Laden. Certainly any investigative efforts (one would think long past effectiveness) might consider that, but that’s a forensic effort, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Just what things should the U.S. do to ‘arbitrate’ between two parties that refuse to talk to each other? The problem with ‘arbitrating’ between the two is that neither Israel or the U.S. is willing to accept the destruction of Israel, and many Arabs will settle for nothing less. Are you confused about the concept of “arbitration”? Obviously, the motives of “many” Arabs —and I challenge you to put a verifiable percentage on that number— cannot negate a negotiation based on representation of _most Palestinians_. > [@](#): > > How about Iraq? We should not seek regime change? Even if Saddam builds nuclear weapons and starts threatening his neighbors with them? Even if he invades Kuwait again? Just where are you willing to draw the line? Threats are something America is pretty familiar with. Did we declare war on the USSR? If Iraq invades another country (pretty unlikely) that’ll be a clear provocation for _international_ response. Won’t it? > [@](#): > > As for the ICC, that’s really a straw man in terms of the Middle East. It’s simply not an issue. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Arabs hate the idea of a world ‘criminal court’ made up of infidels much more than the U.S. does. The subject was “American foreign policy.” Any foreign policy based on unilateral application of law relies purely on military and economic hegemony for success. That’s not the American idea either. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/190 "2002-09-01T15:49:57Z")
xeno: > [@](#): > > \*\*the Lippincott List was offered as a response guide in the event that teachers or parents had to deal with xenophobic or racist statements/questions, which all of us are agreed must be answered in a way which stresses non-discriminatory behavior. Yet, because of it’s marginal connection with a September 11 Remembrance page, the List’s points were held to be offensive and roundly criticized because of the 9/11 context. \*\* Fair enough. I guess my problem with it was, if the classroom discussion turned to blaming ethnic groups, he encouraged expounding on past American repression of ethnic groups in a response to an attack or conflict - even if said discussion isn’t a very good fit to what is occurring now (Japanese internment). But **completely missing** from his list was any kind of emphasis to kids along the lines of, “Look; I know this gets complicated and confusing. But never lose sight of the fact that this was mass-murder. There is no justification for it. There is nothing the United States did that caused this to happen or warranted it happening.” Many might say, “Well, doesn’t that go without saying?” Right back atcha. Doesn’t it go without saying that we don’t want to do what we did when we detained Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor? Who is advocating that? Who has made one step in the million-mile journey in that direction? Indeed, not only is the “don’t forget we’re not to blame” message absent on the list, but we get Lippincourt’s curiously non-contextual comments about understanding that self-blame may allow students to feel in control; something they could have done or could do in the future. Many in the Pit thread howled that he still thought such thinking was bad. Perhaps they are correct, and it was only worded horribly. But I wonder. I wah-wah-wah-wah won-derrrrr. > [@](#): > > \*\*As an experiment, I’m going to try and have a 2 minute conversation about terrorism (or the “war on terrorism”) with my coworkers without any mention of the September 11 attacks or their victims being raised. —I can’t remember any such discussions which haven’t included a 9/11 comment, but I’ve never deliberately tried to hold one without mentioning 9/11, either. Under the new rules of political correctness, if the topic is raised, I’m no longer allowed to bring up otherwise legitimate criticisms of American policy. \*\* You miss the point. How _could_ a discussion of terrorism not include the world’s worst and most recent terrrorist act? It’s when the discussion of America’s foreign policy actions are interjected in certain ways in a Sept. 11 discussion that it can begin to become offensive to some. As has been repeatedly pointed out by me and others, there is nothing that can be pointed to in America’s foreign policy history that = Sept. 11 attack. There is nothing America could realistically do now or have done in the past that = no Sept. 11 attack. In another, non-Sept. 11 attack discussion, any and all points on America’s foreign policy shortcomings are legitimate topics of discussion. For example, completely setting aside Osama bin Laden and his merry band, who we should view as nothing more than cockroaches to be squashed or poisoned until they no longer exist, American focus should be on the millions in the Arab and Muslim world who, jaw-droppingly, read and see what ObL is about, yet still hold some level of support for him. Or who don’t see the Sept. 11 attacks as all that atrocious. Now for me, much of that process has to do with educating said people. Providing them with information to counter their misinformation. Or at least whittling down their position to the point where it is exposed for what it is - which I suspect from talking with several people who hold such views is nothing more than jealousy and/or resentment at America’s power and their country’s lack thereof. YMMV, however. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/191 "2002-09-01T19:26:51Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s when the discussion of America’s foreign policy actions are interjected in certain ways in a Sept. 11 discussion that it can begin to become offensive to some. Yes, I can think of dozens of inappropriate examples. For instance, there’s no justification whatsoever for someone to reply to an admiring comment about NY firefighters by criticising our sanctions against Iraq; it’s a truly offensive non sequitur. But when the conversation turns, as most of them do, to the broad questions – _how does terrorism flourish? what do we do in response? what do we do domestically / where should we go in our foreign policy?_ – then it’s reasonable to note the change in context and broaden the range of topics which we consider polite. It’s that contextual shift that I think is being ignored by many, possibly because the horrendous and indefensible nature of the attacks makes us so totally (and justifiably) unforgiving. Just so with Lippincott’s list. The context it was created to deal with wasn’t the question “were the attacks at all justified?” It was the question “should we hate/fear/act against all Arabs?” You may certainly question the necessity of preparing for this attitude if you think it’s an unlikely one to encounter (although I think school teachers might tell you it’s pretty common), but it’s hardly fair to criticise the list for not addressing every question. The list said nothing about supporting our military or the importance of police forces, for example, because those subjects were beyond the intended scope. > [@](#): > > …American focus should be on the millions in the Arab and Muslim world who, jaw-droppingly, read and see what ObL is about, yet still hold some level of support for him. Or who don’t see the Sept. 11 attacks as all that atrocious. > > Now for me, much of that process has to do with educating said people… I’m in 100% agreement. I think a prerequisite for effective education is a society which encourages open expression of ideas. While I understand from some of the Dopers who know the region that political discourse is alive and well in most Muslim societies, I tend to doubt that the information we’d like to spread is either widely available or that public dissent is much encouraged by the governments of some of our allies. And it’s only in a climate of open dissent, I suggest, that real information regarding American policy can be effectively presented. > [@](#): > > YMMV, however. Not nearly as much as either of us might have thought a few days ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/192 "2002-09-01T20:32:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, I can think of dozens of inappropriate examples. For instance, there’s no justification whatsoever for someone to reply to an admiring comment about NY firefighters by criticising our sanctions against Iraq; it’s a truly offensive non sequitur. But when the conversation turns, as most of them do, to the broad questions – how does terrorism flourish? what do we do in response? what do we do domestically / where should we go in our foreign policy? – then it’s reasonable to note the change in context and broaden the range of topics which we consider polite. It’s that contextual shift that I think is being ignored by many, possibly because the horrendous and indefensible nature of the attacks makes us so totally (and justifiably) unforgiving. There is nothing wrong with trying to figure out why our enemies attack. Von Clausewitz would agree, and he was no shrinking violet. The problem I see is that we tend to evaluate them by projecting western morals and ideology on them. At least, that’s what many of the ‘root cause’ people are doing. What are you going to do if your examination of ‘root causes’ discovers that A) They think democracy is decadent and destructive, and B) Jews are a blight on the earth and must be destroyed, and C) Americans are infidels, and no amount of influence by Americans in the gulf at all will be tolerated? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/193 "2002-09-01T20:52:15Z")
> [@](#): > > The problem I see is that we tend to evaluate them by projecting western morals and ideology on them. At least, that’s what many of the ‘root cause’ people are doing. I agree that we shouldn’t evaluate any culture through projection of ideologies they don’t hold. I’m not sure if that’s what many ‘root cause’ people are doing, or if possibly some have a poor understanding of Middle Eastern cultural differences. Either way, a discussion of root causes of hatred can’t be productive if the cultures under discussion aren’t clearly understood. > [@](#): > > What are you going to do if your examination of ‘root causes’ discovers that A) They think democracy is decadent and destructive, and B) Jews are a blight on the earth and must be destroyed, and C) Americans are infidels, and no amount of influence by Americans in the gulf at all will be tolerated? Depends on who “they” are, how much influence “they” have on larger society, and how pervasive and intractable are these ideas that “they” hold. I don’t think it will be any surprise to you to hear that “Arab culture” is not monolithic. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/194 "2002-09-01T21:15:10Z")
No, of course not. And I wasn’t trying to suggest that these WERE the ideals anyone was holding. My point is that many people want to ‘examine’ things for which they have already drawn conclusions. It’s just another way of saying, “See? America is bad.” For instance, here is what I see as one of the ‘root causes’ of radicalism in Saudi Arabia - the fact that the country is full of young men, and not very many young women. A huge number of workers in Saudi Arabia are men from surrounding countries. And since the government is so freaking misogynist, no women allowed. This has led to a lot of problems, but it’s hard to see how any of that is America’s fault. In fact, you could argue that part of the problem is that there aren’t enough of our values over there - particularly, political and economic power in the hands of women. I’m just wondering if the ‘root cause’ folks are even willing to entertain the notio that the root cause of terrorism is the backwards, misogynistic nature of much Arab culture? And if so, what the solutions are? The old mantra of more ‘cooperation’, ‘understanding’, and financial aid may be completely irrelevant in this war. And there is no doubt that anti-semitism is a big problem in the Arab world, but I don’t hear any ‘root cause’ people talking about that, other than to suggest enabling that anti-semitism by withdrawing support for Israel. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/195 "2002-09-01T23:03:53Z")
Anti semitism does exist, and is part of some of the anti-Israel feelings in the Arab world. And where it is overtly expressed, where it is used as the primary cause against Israel, I suppose it would tend to occlude the legitimate grievances that _do_ exist regarding Israel. Off hand, I can’t think of any MENA nation or organization which is _purely or primarily_ anti-semitic in its mission; can you provide a cite? Also, what do you suggest we ‘root cause’ people need to learn from the fact that anti-semitism exists, that we don’t already take into account? There’s at least a few of us who don’t suggest withdrawing support from Israel, but at the same time don’t heartily stand behind every position that country takes. > [@](#): > > …you could argue that part of the problem is that there aren’t enough of our values [in Saudi Arabia] - particularly, political and economic power in the hands of women. You’ll get no argument from me about that. —I don’t know if your theory that the misogynistic culture _causes_ radicalism is accurate (I’m no expert), but I think you’d have to reconcile that theory with similarly patriarchal societies which haven’t produced extremists. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/196 "2002-09-02T07:05:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > For instance, here is what I see as one of the ‘root causes’ of radicalism in Saudi Arabia - the fact that the country is full of young men, and not very many young women. A huge number of workers in Saudi Arabia are men from surrounding countries. And since the government is so freaking misogynist, no women allowed. This has led to a lot of problems, but it’s hard to see how any of that is America’s fault. In fact, you could argue that part of the problem is that there aren’t enough of our values over there - particularly, political and economic power in the hands of women. Of course the problem for the US is that it has been perceived as actively supporting the Saud regime politically, militarily and economically. This looks like an excellent primer: [http://www.merip.org/pins/pin73.html](http://www.merip.org/pins/pin73.html) Coclusion: " The depth of royal coercion has meant that no alternative voices have been allowed to flourish. Today, there is not a viable alternative to the ruling family that could unite the disparate parts of the country, perhaps enhancing bin Laden’s pull artificially. But what many Saudi Arabians are talking about constitutes neither full democracy nor absolute monarchy. Rather, it is a voice in governance, and the rule of law. The challenge before Crown Prince Abdallah is to promote domestic reform that incorporates the diversity of the population. His strong nationalist voice can be used to counter the power of the radical movement. The wide middle ground between a revolutionary bin Laden and an authoritarian ruling family cries out for cultivation." And this, from a source you might not appreciate quite so highly offers similar information in a different tone: [http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/briefing/2.html](http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/briefing/2.html) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > And there is no doubt that anti-semitism is a big problem in the Arab world, but I don’t hear any ‘root cause’ people talking about that, other than to suggest enabling that anti-semitism by withdrawing support for Israel. I tend to think “anti-Semitism” is an easy aspersion to cast, pretty lazy as a means of understanding Arab/Muslim sentiment towards the Israeli State and a mis-characterisation. If nothing else, the Arab/Muslim world has always been consistent in their agenda – at the top of the list it’s first and foremost a self-determining Palestinian State. Has been for 30-50 years. The fact that it’s a Jewish nation supported by the US that lies in the way of that goal is incidental, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/197 "2002-09-02T11:32:05Z")
There is probably, IMO, nothing the US could have done to stop 9/11 and no change in policy will prevent Bin Laden launching another heinous and unjustified attack. What different policy choices, (perhaps taking a longer term view of our interests, enlightened by our finer our ideals), made by the West could do however, is drain the sea from which he derives support and from which future terrorists will arise. Isolate the guerilla from their support and deny them hiding places in a sympathetic general populance. Just killing them won’t do if it creates more motivation for a new generation of terorists to arise. And “hearts and minds” can’t just be media spin on our existing actions, that just exacerbates things. I hope we nail the SOB and his ilk but i hope we also understand that the pursuit of short term or sectional interests in the world today, can be counter-productive. It was the West that helped foment and arm Islamic fundamentalism to wage a proxy war in Afghanistan because it was seen as in our interest to do so. Can we be confident that was the right move with hindsight? Might it not have been better just to let the communist government alone to educate its people out of the middle ages? By now it might have either collapsed or reformed like Eastern Europe or be like Vietnam, eager to do business. Even if it collapsed into fundamentalism at least we would not have trained and armed a lot of them. Isn’t hindsight a wonderful tool? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/198 "2002-09-02T13:53:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*I tend to think “anti-Semitism” is an easy aspersion to cast, pretty lazy as a means of understanding Arab/Muslim sentiment towards the Israeli State and a mis-characterisation. \*\* Google gives [5000 hits](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=arab+antisemitism+middle+east&btnG=Google+Search) for “arab antisemitism middle east.” Not all address Arab antisemitism, but some do, sometimes _government-sponsored Arab antisemitism_. This is the opposite of Western governments, which typically sponsor tolerance. Here are a couple of examples. > [@](#): > > **Antisemitism and Holocaust denial in the Middle East** > With the overwhelming public and international rejection of antisemitism and Holocaust denial, some Middle Eastern governments, media and publics have joined forces with the racist right-wing fringes elsewhere in the world in promoting and championing both these racist causes. The proliferation of antisemitic propaganda in the Arab world in recent years has raised grave questions of the significance of the threat it could pose on a regional and worldwide scale. > > The blood libel, accusing Jews of using non-Jewish infants’ blood in their rites, to which Syrian Defense Minister Field Marshal Mustafa Tlas devoted his 1983 book “The Matza of Zion”, and of utilizing and sucking the blood of Arabs has been aired repeatedly in the Arab media (e.g. Palestine Liberation Army Mufti Sheikh Colonel Nadir al-Tamimi on al-Jazira T.V. Channel 24/10/2000: columnist Adil Hammuda’s “A Jewish Matza made from Arab Blood” in Egyptian daily al-Ahram). The Egyptian weekly “October” has regaled its readers with “the loathsome qualities of the Jewish race throughout its long history”. > > Holocaust denial is a frequent theme in the Arab media, with the Palestine Times writing of “God’s lying people” who are “the Holocaust worshippers”(no.114, December, 2000), and the Palestine TV channel’s “no Chelmo, no Dachau, no Auschwitz, only disinfecting sites…the lie of extermination”. The mufti of Jerusalem, Sheikh Sabri Ikrama, questions the Holocaust, stating: “It is not my fault that Hitler hated the Jews. Anyway, they hate them just about everywhere”(AP 25/3/2000, NYT 26/3/2000). > > These are random examples of antisemitic racist expressions that abound in the Middle East media. Other Muslim clerics call upon the worshippers in the mosques, in similar language, to “have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country…wherever you meet them, kill them”(Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Friday sermon in Gaza mosque broadcast live on Palestine TV channel). [http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kdm0](http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH0kdm0) > [@](#): > > In Nazi times the same work was used to miseducate a generation of German children and it was distributed in local languages throughout occupied Europe. Today, the Protocols and material like it is on the reading list of many schools in the Arab world, including, until recently, some in the areas under the Palestinian Authority. > > Numbers of authoritative journalists and religious leaders from Egypt across to Syria and Iraq have been captured by the crude postulate of a “Jewish World Conspiracy”. They seem unaware of the colossal irony that the Protocols and similar antisemitic nonsense fed into the Jewish Holocaust in Europe, which in turn led to the establishment of their pet demon, the modern state of Israel. > > Some internet websites which describe themselves as Islamic, such as the blatantly antisemitic “Radio Islam”, run by an Ahmed Rami in Stockholm, have hotlinks to the Protocols and similar material. In Sydney, a leading Moslem spokesman was persuaded only recently to remove a hotlink to “Radio Islam” from his website. > > Some Arab media hint darkly that “the Jews”, in the form of Mossad, were actually behind the atrocities in New York and Washington, the sinister idea being to further Israel’s interests by casting Arabs in a baleful light. > > On 1 January, the English-language Arab News, published in Saudi Arabia, carried an article by one Michael Collins Piper, who wrote that the men who hijacked the doomed airliners were quite possibly fanatical Mossad agents, posing as Arabs. The article concluded: “Did Ariel Sharon help orchestrate the September 11 terrorist attacks to instigate all-out US war against Israel’s enemies? Don’t discount it.” > > It is impossible to know to what extent this kind of absurdity is believed, but credibility is obviously of no concern to its manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers. > > What difference has September 11 made to anti-Jewish racism in the Arab and Moslem world? Opinion in what has become known as the Arab street says that after decades of bullying the rest of the world, the Americans have simply got what was coming to them. Israel is the pawn of the Americans in the Middle East – or perhaps the Americans are pawns of Israel. It is not too difficult to discern the shadowy presence of the Protocols behind much of this simplistic thinking as well as in the attitude of Al Qaida to the non-Moslem world. [http://www.ajds.org.au/Antisemitism.htm](http://www.ajds.org.au/Antisemitism.htm) ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/199 "2002-09-02T14:40:17Z")
Thank you for the links to a speech by a former Israeli Ambassador and the Australian Jewish Democratic Society. Both impartial judges, I’m sure… ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660/200 "2002-09-02T15:58:02Z")
**LC** , please don’t ignore cites, just because they’re Jewish. It’s not right to assume that Jewish sources are automatically dishonest on this subject. Naturally Jews are the ones most concerned about antisemitism. If you really want to dispute the level of antisemitism in middle eastern countries, I would request some counter cites. Try some of the 5000 google hits at the site I provided above. You might find data contradicting Arab antisemitism. Howeverl, I think you will find lots more support for it. I think Arab antisemitism is something that just isn’t reported much, except in conservative American media and, of course, in Israeli and Jewish media. That’s probably why you aren’t familiar with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-common-wisdom-post-9-11-actually-wise/125660.md?page=11)