# Is communism what failed in Russia? Or was it failure to follow through? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031 "2006-01-21T21:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/41 "2006-01-26T03:07:45Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > What’s wrong with billionaires? And the working poor? A poor person in America has a heck of alot of goodies. They can quite often afford cars, designer clothes, computers, cable television. Some of the working poor are homeless. I doubt they have a lot of goodies. And I suspect there are quite a few who have a place to stay at night, but little else. Granted, the working poor are middle class by Third World standards, but only conservative partisans think Third World standards are worth emulating. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/42 "2006-01-26T03:59:28Z")
One of the pre-requisites laid out in the Communist Manifesto was that Communism would begin in a first world country. Capitalism, according to dogma, is a necessary stage that is excellent at building the infrastructure that a healthy state needs. However, Capitalism is too lopsided to last forever, and just like city-states moved to feudalism, and just like feudalism gave way to capitalism, so will capitalism to the next step in human organization. We’ve never seen this happen. All of the attempts at Communism we’ve seen have taken place in feudalist societies without much in the way of infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/43 "2006-01-26T04:41:33Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Capitalism, according to dogma, is a necessary stage that is excellent at building the infrastructure that a healthy state needs. And then once the infrastructure is built, Communism takes over? In my opinion, an excellent example of a deep fallacy built into Communism/Socialism: the idea that someday everything will be built, and then it will just be a matter of equitable distribution. This overlooks a little thing called technological advancement. As long as science keeps coming up with brand-new technologies to implement, there’s always something new for Capitalism to invest in. > [@pantom](#): > > Points 8 and 9 of the Communist Manifesto show the disdain for city-based life that communism is all about; they could have been written by the Khmer Rouge: > > Quote: > 8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. > 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. In other words, cities, factories and industry’s only valid purpose is to aid agricultural production? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/44 "2006-01-26T05:00:53Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And then once the infrastructure is built, Communism takes over? In my opinion, an excellent example of a deep fallacy built into Communism/Socialism: the idea that someday everything will be built, and then it will just be a matter of equitable distribution. This overlooks a little thing called technological advancement. As long as science keeps coming up with brand-new technologies to implement, there’s always something new for Capitalism to invest in. Don’t look at me, I didn’t write it. There are some limits to how useful innovation is. Airplanes are really freaking useful. Spacecraft? Less so. Malaria drugs are pretty useful. Drug-of-the-Month big pharma spinoffs, less so. In any case, innovation doesn’t stop. The idea wasn’t that capitalism would build all of the infrastructure anyone would ever need. It was first a requirement for the mental mindset that would bring the Communist revolution and secondly a way for the early state to avoid crap like famines and wars right off the bat and lay good foundations. An example would be how feudalism created countries and statecraft, but after feudalism faded it, we didn’t lose the idea of countries and heads of state. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/45 "2006-01-26T05:34:54Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > In other words, cities, factories and industry’s only valid purpose is to aid agricultural production? :eek: Kinda looks that way, don’t it? Which might just explain why it appeals more to those infrastructure-deprived countries, otherwise known as backwards places. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/46 "2006-01-26T16:30:54Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Some of the working poor are homeless. I doubt they have a lot of goodies. And I suspect there are quite a few who have a place to stay at night, but little else. Granted, the working poor are middle class by Third World standards, but only conservative partisans think Third World standards are worth emulating. And, if you ever actually asked those conservative partisans you so often drive-by post at, you might find that we’re not psychos laughing at the poor as we walk all the way to the bank with our ill-gotten millions. I pay taxes (well, not right now, since I am one of thoee working poor your describe). I’m perfectly willing to pass along something for the less fortunate. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a duty to work, nor are they entitled to _anything_. Some people’s lives just suck. Some people, like you, assume that if anyone’s life sucks it must be the fault of people whose lives don’t suck. I’m grateful for what I have. But if I lose it, it’s not anyone else’s fault of responsibility. I’m not entitled to cars, homes, boats, steroes, or TV’s, because other people have them. Nor are they evil or immoral because they have them and I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Mercury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/47 "2006-01-26T22:27:33Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > My point is that each of these people were certainly Communist according to them, and they often wrote theoretical works about their brand of Communism well before they took power. Coming off of his writings, Lenin’s acts as Soviet leader were not surprises. > > In any case, we can more or less discount other Communism, because it simply didn’t work. Never has. It was empirically proven to not work in numerous instances in the 19th (yes, 19th) century, and not for lack of trying. The remainder is the Soviet and Chinese Communism. > > Marxism, strictly speaking, is a third way. It’s also a dead end, and relies on the man’s own very incorrect assumptions, more or less none of which are accurate. Damn, don’t you people have jobs? These threads always get away from me so fast… Anyway, pretty much everythign that I wanted to say has already been said. Including the differences among Leninism, Stalinism, and Communism. That, and the antagonism and incombatibility between Communism (as a whole) and rural culture. I think it’s been said already that this incompatibility is at the core of the failure of the soviet system; Stalin’s absolute brutality in enforcing collectivism didn’t help either. Combine that with his complete abandonment of any real egalitarian socialist principles in order to prepare for war and his insatiable lust for personal power, and failure is inevitable. My point, as basic and silly as it is, is that Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Mihn, Kruschev,and others can masquerade their contempt and usery of the working class under the banner of Communism and liberation of the working class all they want, but in the end they were just totalitarian assholes. Much like I can tell the world that I’m Spiderman, but in the end I would just be crazy. Not to mention that Russia was not a country that was ready for even true communistic reform, as it had yet to shake the yoke of the old Aristocracy. One revolution has to happen before another, that was the basis of Marx’s theory, and has never been truly applied. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/48 "2006-01-27T03:12:38Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > And, if you ever actually asked those conservative partisans you so often drive-by post at, you might find that we’re not psychos laughing at the poor as we walk all the way to the bank with our ill-gotten millions. I judge people’s intentions by my opinion of the effects of what they advocate, not by their opinion of it. I do not think I am unique in this respect. > [@](#): > > I pay taxes (well, not right now, since I am one of thoee working poor your describe). I’m perfectly willing to pass along something for the less fortunate. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a duty to work, nor are they entitled to _anything_. Some people’s lives just suck. Some people, like you, assume that if anyone’s life sucks it must be the fault of people whose lives don’t suck. I’m grateful for what I have. But if I lose it, it’s not anyone else’s fault of responsibility. I’m not entitled to cars, homes, boats, steroes, or TV’s, because other people have them. Nor are they evil or immoral because they have them and I don’t. [/QUOTE] I don’t think that fault is involved here. It is more a matter of what sort of society do I want to live in – a Third World society where the social safety net is nonexistent and starvation and homelessness are commonplace for the poor, even the working poor, or a more civilized society where starvation and homelessness are not problems for anyone, and where anyone who works can have a place to stay, enough to eat, and maybe cable TV and internet access as well. I don’t think America is a Third World nation, but with the steady dismantling of the social safety net under the conservatives, we are drifting that way, and I have no problem with poking people to get us moving in the right direction. But it’s not a matter of “fault,” it’s a matter of being actively interested in the quality of the society I live in. I’m not the least bit bothered by that, either. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031/49 "2006-01-27T16:27:22Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I don’t think that fault is involved here. It is more a matter of what sort of society do I want to live in – a Third World society where the social safety net is nonexistent and starvation and homelessness are commonplace for the poor, even the working poor, or a more civilized society where starvation and homelessness are not problems for anyone, and where anyone who works can have a place to stay, enough to eat, and maybe cable TV and internet access as well. > > [snip] > > I don’t think America is a Third World nation, but with the steady dismantling of the social safety net under the conservatives, we are drifting that way, and I have no problem with poking people to get us moving in the right direction. And if you looked at what had been done in the past administration, you’d note that Bush massively _increased_ benefits and entitlements, probably much more than he should have. Granted, not so much for vagrants, but then, vagrants are by nature fairly fluid and difficult to target. And in any event we do have shelters, food, and homes for those who have none. And studies suggest that most homeless are so by choice. Although many are mentally ill in some respect, they still don’t want or can’t stay elsewhere. Suffice it to say I’ve never heard of any vagrant actually starving. Nor do I think cable TV and internet access is a basic human need. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-communism-what-failed-in-russia-or-was-it-failure-to-follow-through/341031.md?page=2)