# Is Conception The Most Moral Act Possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701 "2011-05-29T21:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/41 "2011-05-30T10:41:08Z")
Conception is not an intentional human act, so humans cannot take credit for any perceived morality. Conception is an indirect result of intercourse, and sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn’t. I don’t see how humans can take credit for being moral for a process they have so little control over. I would say euthanasia to relieve suffering is the most moral act, because it is always a direct human act, and it is done intentionally with the goal of alleviating pain at the end of life. The caregiver assumes responsibility for the act of mercy. There can be no more moral action than that. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/42 "2011-05-30T15:17:26Z")
> [@](#): > > one more human life to advance to glory for God and for him or her to experience worship What of the offspring of Satan worshipers, with no aim for the glory of God or joy of worshiping him? Children aren’t supposed to be born with a job, be it holding together the parent’s marriage, providing love for an unloved teenager, or to become a soldier of Christianity. You do realize that your God gave his creation free will, right? That means they have the will to prevent a pregnancy. Children in the west are born into prosperity, in part, because their parents actively choose not to have 10-20 children, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/43 "2011-05-30T15:20:25Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > In an overpopulated, resource constrained world, one less child is a wonderful thing. If we were living in an anime apocalypse, one additional happy child would be preferred. But we are not. Either way, people will respond to biological imperatives. But methinks a world population below 5 billion is superior to something above that. It would be better to focus our resources, love and efforts on fewer kids. Again we have enough resources to maintain more than 7 billion people-8,9,10 billlions but the problem is distribution as many socialists and communists have argued. > [@Marley23](#): > > Bringing joy to another person is usually a good thing. If you have to create that person to bring them joy in the first place, that’s neutral. Feeding a hungry person is a good thing, but it would be ridiculous to say that having a child is a good thing because it allows you to feed a hungry person. The need wouldn’t exist if the child didn’t exist. > [@](#): > > Since God and The Elect are made up, this doesn’t factor in to the matter. But we do not know its composition-that is who is in the Elect and who is not. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This makes no sense. If the child never exists, then its joy cannot be increased. Non-existent things don’t have joy. I meant if the child existed there would be more joy in the world. > [@](#): > > How can it be bad for humans if they don’t exist any more? That’s like saying a dead person wouldn’t mind dying. > [@](#): > > This is silly. If we go extinct, we won’t have any interests. See above. > [@](#): > > What do you mean by “superior,” and why does it matter? Most intelligent, adaptable, etc. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/44 "2011-05-30T15:27:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Again we have enough resources to maintain more than 7 billion people-8,9,10 billlions but the problem is distribution as many socialists and communists have argued. We have enough \*\*food \*\*in the world. Yes, that part I agree on. But distribution requires other resources, like fossil fuels, people to pick, package and transport that food, trucks, trains and airplanes to move it in, time to get it there before it spoils, safe zones where people aren’t shooting at relief workers, etc. We do NOT have the resources for distribution right now. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/45 "2011-05-30T15:32:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > But we do not know its composition-that is who is in the Elect and who is not. Interesting that you responded to this aside and not the rest of the post. But again, I don’t see what is moral about conception. The person’s need to be happy wouldn’t exist if they hadn’t been conceived. (And what about people who are born into miserable circumstances or lead tragic lives?) **Manda JO** is right: you’re trying to fit everything into a very simple moral calculus, and life is more complicated than that. And God and The Elect still don’t exist, so they can’t support your argument. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/46 "2011-05-30T15:34:58Z")
Even sticking with the original (flawed) premise, I want to point out that not all life-taking is morally equivalent. Self-defense, or a soldier defending his country, or someone sacrificing themselves to save others, or any number of things are clearly not the “eviliest things a person can do”, and if we make those kind of distinctions in terms of life-taking, ought we not making them in terms of life-making? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/47 "2011-05-30T15:55:57Z")
I see you’ve chosen to ignore my posts, **Qin Shi Huangdi**. I flatter myself that this is because you are unable to make any rebuttal to my points, but even so, I’d like an answer to the direct question I asked you. > [@Lamia](#): > > I’m going to ask you flat out here, are you building up to something with this “conception is the most moral act” business? ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/48 "2011-05-30T16:04:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > if murder as in the unprovoked taking of human life is one of the eviliest things a person can do Well, that right there is where your argument goes off the rails. The greatest sin that a Christian can commit is putting a “In case of the Rapture this car will be uncontrolled” sticker on his car. This is the sin of **PRIDE** , saying “I am saved and you are not.” It is abrogating the role of GOD in judgment. Murder is pretty small potatoes by comparison. I am not sure “moraller” is a good comparative, anyway. Moral is binary; an act is moral or it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/49 "2011-05-30T19:22:23Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > That’s not logic, it’s religious wishful thinking. > > However, Christians cannot have any objection to your proposition. > > If they condemn a killer, they should exalt and praise the ones who give life to as many other human beings as possible. > \*\* > But they don’t, because they all condemn women of a non-white color that have many children.\*\* > > Hypocrisy has no limits. (bolding mine) What the [del]hell[/del] fuck are you talking about? Do you think all Christians are white or something? My sisters and father would be very surprised to hear that they have suddenly become of nothern European ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/50 "2011-05-30T19:33:21Z")
Conception and reproduction are the default outcome to a romantic relationship, I do not think that can claim any form of “morality”. How does it relate to the concept of right and wrong? Except that some mythoi encourage reproduction I fail to even see where the act it’s self can be good and or bad if you consider the act alone as posited in the original post. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/51 "2011-05-30T19:38:08Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > **Conception and reproduction are the default outcome to a romantic relationship** , I do not think that can claim any form of “morality”. How does it relate to the concept of right and wrong? > > Except that some mythoi encourage reproduction I fail to even see where the act it’s self can be good and or bad if you consider the act alone as posited in the original post. The clause I bolded is not true. Even if you set aside gays & lesbians, there are tons of heterosexual couples who cannot have a child whether they wish to or not. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/52 "2011-05-30T19:52:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The clause I bolded is not true. Even if you set aside gays & lesbians, there are tons of heterosexual couples who cannot have a child whether they wish to or not. The fact that there may be exceptions that do not result in conception does not change that fact that for most couples, over time, the act of sex will typically result in conception unless they take action to prevent it. So how does that relate to good or evil? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/53 "2011-05-30T19:54:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The fact that there may be exceptions that do not result in conception does not change that fact that for most couples, over time, the act of sex will typically result in conception unless they take action to prevent it. > > So how does that relate to good or evil? It doesn’t. I was contesting the default remark, which I found objectionable. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/54 "2011-05-30T20:07:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It doesn’t. I was contesting the default remark, which I found objectionable. To be honest your reasoning for this objection interests me more than the original question? Outside of a biological exception\* or through significant effort on the part of the couple, we are dang lucky that it is the default IMHO. Well in the way that I was lucky enough to exist because I doubt that every one of my ancestors made a “moral” action to reproduce. (biological exception being any cause like infertility or sexual preference or any natural existing limit on ones ability to reproduce with your sexual partner) ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/55 "2011-05-30T22:27:51Z")
The more of **Curtis** ’ threads I read, the more I say to myself “in a few years this kid is going to have sex with another person and, when he does, much of the ridiculous, unsupported nonsense he proposes on this board will suddenly disappear.” However, I’m beginning to have my doubts. How does one assign a moral value to the instinctual, biological imperative to procreate? Actually, I think an argument can be made that to not bring a life into the world is, in certain cases, morally superior than doing so, such as for rape\* pregnancies, teen pregnancies, and unwanted pregnancies. - Yes, I know it’s no longer rape month (heh) on the SDMB, and its mention stands the chance of causing a derailment but (a) this entire thread is meaningless anyway as its premise\*\* is nonsensical, and (b) perhaps this will spur **Curtis** to state his motivations for starting it, possibly fostering a meaningful discussion. \*\* I say ‘premise’ because many of **Curtis** ’ threads seem to really be forums for the pronouncement of prejudicial religious and conservative positions couched as questions, so when **Curtis** asks “Is conception the most moral act possible?” or another question in the myriad other threads he starts, I suspect he’s actually pulling a Cavuto. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/56 "2011-05-30T22:33:51Z")
**Naxos** , the mods have told you that these posts are getting old. You were warned for this off-topic, hyperbolic bashing of religion in another thread and I’m repeating that instruction here. Stay on topic or find a more appropriate thread (probably in the Pit) for these posts. > [@Naxos](#): > > That’s not logic, it’s religious wishful thinking. > > However, Christians cannot have any objection to your proposition. > > If they condemn a killer, they should exalt and praise the ones who give life to as many other human beings as possible. > > But they don’t, because they all condemn women of a non-white color that have many children. > > Hypocrisy has no limits. > [@Naxos](#): > > Check out the Bible some time. > > Christianity condemns people to eternal hell for whatever reason a representative Christian chooses to do so. > > Religion is always defined by the behavior of the claimed participants of the religion, not by some wishful thinking of abstract and irrelevant idealistic interpretation of meaningless rules. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/57 "2011-06-02T20:50:41Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Here is the logic: if murder as in the unprovoked taking of human life is one of the eviliest things a person can do would not conceiving a human life, being its exact opposite, be one of the most moral acts possible? Would it not be moral to create one more human life to advance to glory for God and for him or her to experience worship, love, kindness, pleasure, and so on? I agree with **Lamia** , your logic is flawed. Conception, or reproduction (which is what you really mean), is not the inverse of murder. Murder is evil because it is taking away something that you cannot restore. The unprovoked taking of another human’s life is to, without provokation, cease their existence and take away something you are powerless to restore. If I steal your money, I could give you the money back, or something equivalent. If I steal your car, I could return your car, or a similar car, or something of equal value. But if I take your life, that is irrevocable. I can’t restore it later. Replacing you with a new baby from scratch is not restoring something that was lost, it is just creating a new human that is now in the world, for better or worse. Saving a life is closer to the opposite of murder. Conception and reproduction are different acts and must be evaluated on their own merits. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/58 "2011-06-02T21:06:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Bringing joy to another person is usually a good thing. If you have to create that person to bring them joy in the first place, that’s neutral. Feeding a hungry person is a good thing, but it would be ridiculous to say that having a child is a good thing because it allows you to feed a hungry person. [Truly ridiculous.](http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html) Not sure this debate is headed anywhere, but my two (obvious) cents: Conception can be a miracle or a tragedy. Just ask the couple who’s been trying to conceive, or the single mom who’s finally gotten a good job. Same with murder, I suppose, when you take into account mercy killing. Aborting an unwanted fetus and helping a person end their suffering can be two of the noblest, kindest actions a person can ever take. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/59 "2011-06-02T21:11:27Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Here is the logic: if murder as in the unprovoked taking of human life is one of the eviliest things a person can do would not conceiving a human life, being its exact opposite, be one of the most moral acts possible? Would it not be moral to create one more human life to advance to glory for God and for him or her to experience worship, love, kindness, pleasure, and so on? No because murder is vile not for the reasons that it takes you away from god, but that it’s simply something that violates your body and mind in an irreversible way. Creating a life is neutral in morality Saving a life would be the correct analogous opposite of killing ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/60 "2011-06-02T22:21:34Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Energy efficiency is increasing and the vast majority of the Earth is still virgin. Places where nobody in their right mind would want to live don’t count. Sheesh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701.md?page=4)