# Is Conception The Most Moral Act Possible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 29, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701 "2011-05-29T21:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/61 "2011-06-02T22:32:22Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Again we have enough resources to maintain more than 7 billion people-8,9,10 billlions but the problem is distribution as many socialists and communists have argued. Determining optimum population on the basis of assertions from socialists and communists is like determining the course of a space probe on the basis of assertions from astrologers and flat-earthers or determining how to treat mental illness on the basis of assertions from scientologists and witch doctors. Really, this sort of thing (well, that and my habit of unwarranted generosity) is why my responses to you tend to be in the “30% serious, 70% mock” category. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/62 "2011-06-02T22:43:21Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > . . . Even if you’re not religious, it would be a bad thing for humans and as a member of the species it would not be in our interest to let humanity go extinct. . . "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth . . . " It’s looking full enough to make extinction unlikely. Mission accomplished. Now if you want to say that the earth is vulnerable to asteroid strikes and that we’d better get a secondary population going off-planet, I might consider that to be, maybe not moral, but desirable. Not the opposite of murder, but desirable. And we had a poll a while ago on planned vs surprise children. You might want to check it out. Sometimes I think it’s like antibiotic resistance. The longer we use contraception, the more we’re breeding for getting past contraception. But I doubt that hypothesis would really fly. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/63 "2011-06-02T22:53:13Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > And we had a poll a while ago on planned vs surprise children. You might want to check it out. Sometimes I think it’s like antibiotic resistance. The longer we use contraception, the more we’re breeding for getting past contraception. But I doubt that hypothesis would really fly. Modern contraception hasn’t been around nearly long enough to have any evolutionary effects. Not with the long generation times humans have; bacteria evolve far faster than us because their generations are measured in minutes instead of decades. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/64 "2011-06-02T23:40:54Z")
So the local Tom cat is the most moral neighbor in the area? He’s knocked up one kitty for at least 3 litters worth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/65 "2011-06-03T00:46:50Z")
If we regress the morality of birth back to conception, why not regress the morality of conception back to ejaculation? It’s all part of the process. So then isn’t masturbation an act of glory to God? And now a reading from the Book of Sorority Girls… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/66 "2011-06-03T01:09:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If we regress the morality of birth back to conception, why not regress the morality of conception back to ejaculation? It’s all part of the process. So then isn’t masturbation an act of glory to God? > > And now a reading from the Book of Sorority Girls… Wouldn’t that make porn religious films? What with all the money shots. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/67 "2011-06-03T01:42:26Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > We have enough \*\*food \*\*in the world. Yes, that part I agree on. But distribution requires other resources, like fossil fuels, people to pick, package and transport that food, trucks, trains and airplanes to move it in, time to get it there before it spoils, safe zones where people aren’t shooting at relief workers, etc. We do NOT have the resources for distribution right now. Well, I’ll disagree: IMHO, we have sufficient fossil fuels, etc. to support 10 billion people, _provided_ we had suitable economic institutions. Among other things, that would involve having gas prices reflect the burdens of pollution, waging war, etc. We don’t have that by a long shot. But **Qin** : it’s not enough to argue resource _sufficiency_ if you want to support the OP. You have to argue that an additional child brings more benefits to the world than costs. And consuming an extra mountain of gasoline, coal, CO2 et al diverts resources away from better activities, or so I claim. Again, it serves the commonwealth better to go for human quality than human quantity. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/68 "2011-06-03T02:33:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > And Masturbation would be crime against god. Once again (as I am always more than happy to point out) Bill Hicks nailed it. Nothing more need be posted.😉 [Links at end of post.] > [@](#): > > "Here’s another idea that should be punctured, the idea that childbirth is a miracle. I don’t know who started this rumor but it’s not a miracle. No more a miracle than eating food and a turd coming out of your butt. It’s a chemical reaction and a biological reaction. You want to know a miracle? A miracle is raising a kid that doesn’t talk in a fucking movie theater… > > _[snip]_ > > …I am sorry to tell you this. [Children] are not special. I’ll let that sink in. Don’t get me wrong, folks. I know YOU think they’re special. You think that. I’m telling you-they’re not. > > Did you know that every time a guy comes, he comes 200 million sperm? Did you know that? And you mean to tell me that you think your child is special? Because one of out 200 million sperm—that load …we’re talkin’ that load!—connected. Gee, what are the fucking odds? > > Do you know what that means? I have wiped entire civilizations off my chest, with a grey gym sock. _ **That** _ is special. > > Entire nations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel. _ **That** _ is special… > > And I want you to think about that, you two-egg-carrying beings out there with that holier-than-thou, ‘we-have-the-gift-of-life’ attitude. I have tossed universes, in my underpants, while napping. _ **THAT** _ is special." [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqtcb66Yeyo&feature=related) a clip of Bill disclosing the above Truth. [Text version](http://www.alternativereel.com/includes/top-ten/display_review.php?id=00047) (quote #1 at bottom of page) along with other precious, Hicks gems. And here’s another [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6GhOLE6hSU) of more Hicks correctness (though not of the “political” type!) on childbirth. (From his big, late-career, _Revelations_ tour. [London show].) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/69 "2011-06-03T02:43:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If we regress the morality of birth back to conception, why not regress the morality of conception back to ejaculation? It’s all part of the process. So then isn’t masturbation an act of glory to God? Nah. Conception may be holy, but sex and especially masturbation are evil. Just picture a wad of semen filled with millions of sperm, and all the sperm speaking in [not-quite-unison](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VoiceOfTheLegion): “CALL US LEGION, FOR WE ARE MANY.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/70 "2011-06-03T03:00:42Z")
If you can’t trust a poster named **I Love Me** on the subject of masturbation, who can you trust? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/71 "2011-06-03T03:48:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If you can’t trust a poster named **I Love Me** on the subject of masturbation, who can you trust? Good one! 😃 But I’m merely passing along the Truth “As Bill Sees It”. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/72 "2011-06-03T05:18:01Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Once again (as I am always more than happy to point out) Bill Hicks nailed it. Nothing more need be posted.😉 [Links at end of post.] > > [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqtcb66Yeyo&feature=related) a clip of Bill disclosing the above Truth. > > [Text version](http://www.alternativereel.com/includes/top-ten/display_review.php?id=00047) (quote #1 at bottom of page) along with other precious, Hicks gems. > > And here’s another [video](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6GhOLE6hSU) of more Hicks correctness (though not of the “political” type!) on childbirth. (From his big, late-career, _Revelations_ tour. [London show].) Hmm. Well. If you go through years of fertility treatments with no luck, and then finally succeed in having a child, it sure feels like a miracle, notwithstanding all those millions of sperm. Those millions simply didn’t do anything for us. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/73 "2011-06-03T09:44:46Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Hmm. Well. If you go through years of fertility treatments with no luck, and then finally succeed in having a child, it sure feels like a miracle, notwithstanding all those millions of sperm. Those millions simply didn’t do anything for us. One of them did. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/74 "2011-06-03T12:48:49Z")
I think there is a secular sense of the word “miracle” that just means “really amazing and hard t comprehend” and fetal development/childbirth qualifies for that. A newborn seems miraculous to me: not because I think there is any ineffable mystery in it, but because it’s just astounding that so many things could go right, that new life could develop out of something so small. I’ve got a baby kicking inside me right now, and I have to say, I find it miraculous, and it seems . . .pretentious . . . for someone to deny that. Like a kid looking at the Grand Canyon and scuffing his foot and saying “so a bunch of water came through and eroded away the rock. BFD.”. On the other hand, people who use “miracle” to mean “permanently beyond human understanding” are annoying, when it clearly isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/75 "2011-06-03T13:59:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If we regress the morality of birth back to conception, why not regress the morality of conception back to ejaculation? It’s all part of the process. So then isn’t masturbation an act of glory to God? I never realized how accurate I was being when I said I did it religiously. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/76 "2011-06-03T15:15:59Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Here is the logic: if murder as in the unprovoked taking of human life is one of the eviliest things a person can do would not conceiving a human life, being its exact opposite, be one of the most moral acts possible? Would it not be moral to create one more human life to advance to glory for God and for him or her to experience worship, love, kindness, pleasure, and so on? According to Scriptures man’s lot is to die and his salvation comes from dieing, woman’s salvation is to bring forth life. The cycle of death and rebirth are a equilibrium in this world, some call it reincarnation. It is the temporary condition we are in till God restores His Kingdom and death is abolished and all we have is life. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/77 "2011-06-03T16:29:24Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Saving a life is closer to the opposite of murder. > [@YogSosoth](#): > > Saving a life would be the correct analogous opposite of killing Yup. To put it in a Biblical perspective: “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:12-13 When combined with Jesus’ moral commandment - “Love your neighbor as yourself” - it becomes quite clear what the most moral act possible is, at least to a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/78 "2011-06-03T16:29:36Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I believe conception is good for anyone including non-Christians for I believe it is better to live and not be of the Elect than not to exist at all, for even those not of the Elect will ultimately have some meaning in the greater scheme of things. Have you spoken to someone who doesn’t exist to demonstrate that existence is better? The absurdity of my question stems from the absurdity of your comparison. What is moral is taking care of children you have. Conception itself is morally neutral. Is a woman who conceives and intends to throw the baby in the trash doing something moral? The man who is planning on leaving the child in poverty? At the time, you don’t know if your child is going to be healthy and happy or sick and miserable. It is a bet, the outcome of which you can influence to some extent by your background and circumstances - but not totally. I’d say adopting is a far more moral act than conceiving. We have two wanted and planned kids, but anyone can have that. Our real estate agent who adopted four kids whose parents died in a fire and who had no one to take care of them was far more moral in this area than we were. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/79 "2011-06-03T16:29:41Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > I never realized how accurate I was being when I said I did it religiously. Only on Sunday, sitting on a hard bench and listening to organ music? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701/80 "2011-06-03T16:38:20Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Yup. To put it in a Biblical perspective: > > “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.” John 15:12-13 > > When combined with Jesus’ moral commandment - “Love your neighbor as yourself” - it becomes quite clear what the most moral act possible is, at least to a Christian. I would say saving someone’s soul would be the important issue, not saving a life, Jesus said you have to die to live. The physical life is not that critical, and saving a life therefor not the opposite of murder, scripturally childbirth is much closer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conception-the-most-moral-act-possible/583701.md?page=5)