# Is "conservative" beginning to become the new "liberal"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 25, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251 "2013-10-25T22:19:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/41 "2013-10-28T19:11:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Conservatives have going for them that this is a center right country . . . [Not really.](http://www.people-press.org/2011/05/04/beyond-red-vs-blue-the-political-typology/) > [@Debaser](#): > > . . . and Liberals have the schools and the media as their camp followers. When are you going to drop that canard? ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/42 "2013-10-28T19:13:47Z")
> [@glee](#): > > No, Tea Party Republicans lie to you about Universal Health Care (UHC), whilst Democrats can **prove** it works. > > Here in the UK, we’ve had UHC since 1948 (known as the National Health Service.) > The National Health Service is supported by every political party and is immensely popular. > > From the link above: > … An independent survey conducted in 2004 found that users of the NHS often expressed very high levels of satisfaction about their personal experience of the medical services. Of hospital inpatients, 92% said they were satisfied with their treatment; 87% of GP users were satisfied with their GP; 87% of hospital outpatients were satisfied with the service they received; and 70% of Accident and Emergency department users reported being satisfied… I don’t want to derail the thread with a debate about healthcare, but since both you and BrainGlutton responded, I’ll just say that I’ve actually been convinced by the data that a national single-payer system is clearly superior to Obamacare in every respect. And even superior (for health outcomes, at least) to the old US system. But Europe has overall lackluster economic performance compared to the US. While there are many factors, I’m in the camp that thinks high taxes (even with all the benefits those taxes bring) come at a cost of slightly reduced economic growth. The difference in prosperity between Europe and Africa is just 1% GDP growth annually, over 300 years. So if we sacrifice just 1% GDP growth, think where that puts our great-great-grandkids in 300 years. Is it worth punishing everyone in the future to benefit the bottom 10% today. I’m also in the camp that thinks this is none of the federal government’s business. Good idea or not, it’s not their job. So you can see, I’m pretty conservative at the core. The fact that the Tea Party has got me voting for Democrats is a pretty good measure of what the OP is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/43 "2013-10-28T19:16:08Z")
When you come down to specific issues, the distinction is actually pretty bogus since everyone is happy to use the govt to further their agenda. Conservatives claim to advocate less govt and fiscal conservatism but actually favor neither when it suits their purposes. DOMA and laws against abortion show that they are perfectly happy to use the power of the state to enforce their religious beliefs. And their willingness to cut taxes while increasing spending on pet projects like border security, the war on drugs, anti-terrorism, foreign military conflicts,etc. show they have no respect for fiscal conservatism whatsoever. The bottom line is that it’s all branding designed to appeal to certain demographics and in no way relates to reality. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/44 "2013-10-28T19:20:54Z")
It seems to me that both labels are falling out of use and rightfully so, since the groups that they’re used to describe aren’t the same as they used to be, and in both cases, they’re often used as pejoratives. Rather it seems that it’s just become either left vs. right or progressive instead of liberal, and since we’re in transition, not quite sure what will ultimately replace conservative. So, to some extent, I’ll agree that it’s sort of the new “liberal” in the sense of being used as a pejorative and so people are less likely to associate with it, but beyond that, it seems to me that the political landscape is just changing too much. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/45 "2013-10-28T21:59:46Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Much as you might wish it, this is not the case. … Note the “beginning” in the op? It’s not there yet but it is the direction it is heading and currently picking up speed as it does. “Conservative” has not yet become anathema and “liberal” is not yet embraced by those aiming for national office. And I readily admit that some of this is me WAGing in advance of data - the moves that I cited are [modest](http://www.gallup.com/poll/162746/fewer-americans-identify-economic-conservatives-2013.aspx) (drops in “economic conservative” ID from 51% in 2010 to 41% in early 2013 and in “social conservative” from 42% in 2009 to 35% in early 2013, with “liberal” of each moving up in the same time periods) and importantly “conservative” is still by itself a larger group than either “liberal” or “moderate.” Given that those who identify as “conservative” are concentrated within the GOP, and especially among those who vote in primaries, running away from the label is not something you’ll see too soon on that side of the fence. OTOH liberal and moderate together are larger than conservative and my sense of it remains that moderates are beginning to move away from those identifying as conservative and are a less scared of the label of liberal. Certain tactics have not worked well. Let’s face it: Obama is in reality no more hard core liberal than I am. He is a moderate maybe a bit left of center and some issues and to the right even on a couple of others. Labelling him as an example of the extreme liberal position, a socialist even, gradually convinces moderates, who find themselves agreeing with much of what Obama says, that those things are not so extreme.They might not yet be willing to call themselves liberal but they are no longer as scared to vote for someone so labelled. Yes it is about brand image and brand image matters. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/46 "2013-10-28T23:33:20Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > While there are many factors, I’m in the camp that thinks high taxes (even with all the benefits those taxes bring) come at a cost of slightly reduced economic growth. The difference in prosperity between Europe and Africa is just 1% GDP growth annually, over 300 years. So if we sacrifice just 1% GDP growth, think where that puts our great-great-grandkids in 300 years. Is it worth punishing everyone in the future to benefit the bottom 10% today. Ummm…one of those “many factors” is getting devastated by continent-wide war (and more importantly, it’s aftermath) for a significant portion of that 300 years. That’s not an insignificant factoid. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/47 "2013-10-29T00:46:20Z")
I consider myself a committed centrist, and it is impossible to support today’s self-styled “conservatives” because that crowd is sorely lacking in competent professionalism while giving a pass to any sort of mental instability. I would also start disliking “liberals” if there was some huge movement out there to load up Congress with yogic fliers and crystal-worshipers … it’s just not happening that way, though. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/48 "2013-10-29T01:01:56Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Ummm…one of those “many factors” is getting devastated by continent-wide war (and more importantly, it’s aftermath) for a significant portion of that 300 years. That’s not an insignificant factoid. I’m not saying that Africa’s problems result from tax rates. I’m saying that a small difference in growth rates over a long period of time can have dramatic results. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/49 "2013-10-29T02:57:39Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I would also start disliking “liberals” if there was some huge movement out there to load up Congress with yogic fliers and crystal-worshipers … it’s just not happening that way, though. Even vegetarian Kucinich is out, now. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/50 "2013-10-29T02:58:47Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Ummm…one of those “many factors” is getting devastated by continent-wide war (and more importantly, it’s aftermath) for a significant portion of that 300 years. Do you mean Europe or Africa? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/51 "2013-10-29T03:36:44Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > … a small difference in growth rates over a long period of time can have dramatic results. The question of course is whether the benefits from what the marginal increase in taxes allow spending on increases growth rate more than the marginal decrease caused by the taxes … like a large business that reserves some money for R&D and future infrastructure investments required for growth may have better long term returns than one that distributes all profits as dividends. Do the marginal taxes in question allow for education, R&D, infrastructure improvements, and a more productive workforce able to produce more per hour with decreased costs due to illness and injury (such as but not limited to those workplace or foodborne in cause)? Then the impact may be a highly signifiant net positive on long term growth rates. If they solely are marginal increases with no positive impact on productivity (which of course could be the case depending on how it is spent) then those dramatic long term negative results might happen. Taxation and spending is not good for productivity if it is invested poorly and it is not bad for productivity if it is invested wisely. If the latter then the small difference in growth rate over a long period of time does have dramatic positive results. Please [note](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP) Germany’s tax burden is 40.6% of GDP, the United States is only 26.9. China is down at 17.8 but Egypt is even lower at 15.8 and those African countries are down there some in lower single digits. There simply is no linear relationship between tax burden of a country and its long term productivity and even more importantly to discussion about the United States and lowering taxes, the U.S. is pretty low compared to its Western peers. Taxing in order to be able to invest wisely is a good thing and the fact that the U.S. has such high productivity with such a relatively lowish taxation as a fraction of GDP means that we actually have done that moderately well, getting pretty damn good bangs for our bucks. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/52 "2013-10-29T03:48:28Z")
I don’t know about govt, but for corporations, the link between R&D and growth is clear - at least [according to Goldman Sachs](http://www.businessinsider.com/rd-correlated-to-stock-price-returns-2013-8). > [@](#): > > In a new report titled, “The Search for Creative Destruction,” the Goldman analysts examine the connection between R&D spending, revenue growth, and stock price returns. > “We review Technology, Internet and Biotech names currently in the NASDAQ 100 and find a strong correlation between R&D and Sales Growth (8-year CAGR through 2012; R2 75%) and between the latter and stock price returns over this period (R2 71%),” they wrote. Chart at link. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/53 "2013-10-29T11:40:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do you mean Europe or Africa? Actually, when it comes to that, you can probably take either one, but I was speaking specifically of Europe. The original assertion by dracoi was that Europe’s (relatively) slow economic growth could be tied to higher taxes. Those taxes used at least in part to pay for UHC. I pointed out that there were a few other things in play. 2 of them start with WW. ---
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/54 "2013-11-21T16:52:18Z")
Well, yeah, I think the Tea Party is “extreme,” but not in a bad way. I think this group is extreme in how it perseveres with what it believes to be right, even now that these beliefs are becoming unpopular and politically incorrect. I respect the Tea Party because it is pretty strict about sticking to its values and not being swayed to the left by political “peer pressure” like the mainstream Republican party. The mainstream republicans seem to be buckling lately; they seem to be getting lenient on what they believe and changing it in order to please people and win elections. That’s not good politics in my opinion. It’s a sign that a party is becoming corrupt and that the members of said party only care about gaining political power at any cost; and that, of course, isn’t good for any of us. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/55 "2013-11-21T17:16:35Z")
From your other thread: > [@So, we should get used to saying "President Christie?" Yea or nay?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-should-get-used-to-saying-president-christie-yea-or-nay/674448/1): > > I dislike it mostly because he has signed legislation as the governor of New Jersey that has infringed on people’s rights, and I take that as a huge red flag. You may not agree with the type of therapy he recently banned involving homosexuality, and you might even be glad he banned it, but that doesn’t mean he had any _right_\*\* to ban it, and I think this ban qualifies him as a possible future dictator. From this thread: > [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I respect the Tea Party because it is pretty strict about sticking to its values and not being swayed to the left by political “peer pressure” like the mainstream Republican party. You might want to make up your mind about values before starting debates about them. ---
**Author:** ![ILikeForeignLanguages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bc8723/32.png) [@ILikeForeignLanguages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ILikeForeignLanguages)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/56 "2013-11-21T23:17:48Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > From your other thread: > From this thread: > You might want to make up your mind about values before starting debates about them. I don’t see a contradiction between the posts of mine that you quoted; if you don’t mind, could you explain this supposed contradiction a bit more? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/57 "2013-11-21T23:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I think this group is extreme in how it perseveres with what it believes to be right, … So why can’t any of them say what that is? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/58 "2013-11-21T23:27:46Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > I don’t see a contradiction between the posts of mine that you quoted; if you don’t mind, could you explain this supposed contradiction a bit more? Sorry. I apparently got lost among the negatives. I’m also sorry you feel this way but it does appear to be consistent. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/59 "2013-11-22T15:55:54Z")
> [@ILikeForeignLanguages](#): > > Well, yeah, I think the Tea Party is “extreme,” but not in a bad way. I think this group is extreme in how it perseveres with what it believes to be right, even now that these beliefs are becoming unpopular and politically incorrect. I respect the Tea Party because it is pretty strict about sticking to its values and not being swayed to the left by political “peer pressure” like the mainstream Republican party. The mainstream republicans seem to be buckling lately; they seem to be getting lenient on what they believe and changing it in order to please people and win elections. That’s not good politics in my opinion. It’s a sign that a party is becoming corrupt and that the members of said party only care about gaining political power at any cost; and that, of course, isn’t good for any of us. Yeah, but turn that around: If a party sticks rigidly to its ideology even when that’s a loser at the polls, so it never **gets** any political power, what’s the point of the whole thing? And that is exactly what will happen if the TP ever goes third-party. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251/60 "2013-11-22T16:34:49Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Ummm…one of those “many factors” is getting devastated by continent-wide war (and more importantly, it’s aftermath) for a significant portion of that 300 years. That’s not an insignificant factoid. I think its good to think long term, but in the grand scheme of things, current taxes and growth rates will mean bupkis to the nation 300 years from now. Given how quickly the world changes targeting policy for more than about 20 years in the future is probably misguided, with an exception made for irreversible changes like global warming, or the draining of the Ogallala Aquifer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-conservative-beginning-to-become-the-new-liberal/672251.md?page=4)