# Is Cordoba House a provocative name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 4, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130 "2010-08-04T11:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/21 "2010-08-04T14:38:39Z")
Some of those nearly 800 years (specifically, between 1239 and the expulsion) were under Christian rule, even. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/22 "2010-08-04T14:46:22Z")
My first thought was that the place would be full of rich Corinthian leather, truth be told. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/23 "2010-08-04T14:51:28Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > I’m not sure that’s going to help much. Tolerant or not, Muslims still ruled Cordoba and al-Andalus. It’s not as though Jews and Christians were equal partners in a power-sharing arrangement or something. > > > > On the other hand, the Caliphs were certainly a lot more tolerant of both Christians and Jews than any contemporary Christian ruler. > > But the question isn’t “what was the historical reality in Cordoba”, it was “why did the Cordoba initiative choose Cordoba as their namesake”. The group itself published their reasons, and it has nothing to do with Muslim rule, it was because “For nearly 800 years, the city of Cordoba in Spain endured as a shining example of tolerance among the three monotheistic religions. Muslim, Christian and Jew cohabited in prosperity during a period known for its outstanding literary and scientific productivity.” You know that, and I know that, but the people the OP is arguing with aren’t going to accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/24 "2010-08-04T14:55:31Z")
These controversies aren’t really new - I have read commentary from several sources recently comparing this dustup to the Auschwitz convent/cross. Were the Carmelite nuns at the convent at all complicit in the Holocaust? No. Was the convent inappropriately placed? Probably - it was only built there in 1984, so its removal was appropriate, IMHO. Were calls to remove the cross placed by the Pope appropriate? Probably not, IMHO, considering that Christians died in the camp as well. Manhattan is a big place - there are lots of places for a mosque to go, and indeed there are many there already. I am not opposed to others. Appropriate memorials at the 9/11 site are certainly welcome and can certainly include contributions from the Muslim community. Whether a mosque at the site is appropriate can certainly be debated by people, just like the Auschwitz convent was, without necessarily deeming people with differing opinions “mouth breathing neanderthals.” ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/25 "2010-08-04T14:56:30Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > But the question isn’t “what was the historical reality in Cordoba”, it was “why did the Cordoba initiative choose Cordoba as their namesake”. The group itself published their reasons, and it has nothing to do with Muslim rule, it was because “For nearly 800 years, the city of Cordoba in Spain endured as a shining example of tolerance among the three monotheistic religions. Muslim, Christian and Jew cohabited in prosperity during a period known for its outstanding literary and scientific productivity.” And this seems perfectly reasonable to me. When I read the name I thought ‘how nice, they’ve named it after a time and place when Muslims resided peacefully in the West, were much more reasonable, less-extreme and science minded than they often seem nowadays, sounds like it says something nice about the people setting up the mosque.’ Some times a spade is just a spade. But some people seem determined to keep digging til they find some imaginary slight on USA! USA! ---
**Author:** ![justrob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@justrob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justrob)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/26 "2010-08-04T14:59:53Z")
You could probably get some good stuff from the [previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=566263&highlight=%22Cordoba+House%22)on it. I looked quickly and one of the things I remember from that other thread is that the site is actually a few blocks from the WTC site. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/27 "2010-08-04T15:02:20Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > It is not provocative to people of intelligence. You mean a generous 5% of the population? That’s a relief. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/28 "2010-08-04T15:03:37Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Manhattan is a big place - there are lots of places for a mosque to go, and indeed there are many there already. I am not opposed to others. Appropriate memorials at the 9/11 site are certainly welcome and can certainly include contributions from the Muslim community. Whether a mosque at the site is appropriate can certainly be debated by people, just like the Auschwitz convent was, without necessarily deeming people with differing opinions “mouth breathing neanderthals.” Whether or not that debate is appropriate isn’t really an issue. There is _already_ a mosque at 51 Park Place. The Cordoba plan is an expansion of an existing facility, not the creation of a new one. In any event, as numerous people have pointed out in related threads, _it’s not at the 9/11 site._ You can see for yourself [here](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=51%20park%20place%20new%20york&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl). It’s two blocks away from Ground Zero. ETA: **justrob** beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/29 "2010-08-04T15:04:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Mr.Moto](#): > > > > Manhattan is a big place - there are lots of places for a mosque to go, and indeed there are many there already. I am not opposed to others. Appropriate memorials at the 9/11 site are certainly welcome and can certainly include contributions from the Muslim community. Whether a mosque at the site is appropriate can certainly be debated by people, just like the Auschwitz convent was, without necessarily deeming people with differing opinions “mouth breathing neanderthals.” > > Whether or not that debate is appropriate isn’t really an issue. There is _already_ a mosque at 51 Park Place. The Cordoba plan is an expansion of an existing facility, not the creation of a new one. > > In any event, as numerous people have pointed out in related threads, _it’s not at the 9/11 site._ You can see for yourself [here](http://maps.google.com/maps?q=51%20park%20place%20new%20york&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl). It’s two blocks away from Ground Zero. > > ETA: **justrob** beat me to it. In the same holy ground occupied by a “Marty’s Shoes” and the “Equinox Fitness Club”. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/30 "2010-08-04T15:04:59Z")
Coupla facts that tend to get lost in this debate: _It isn’t at ground zero_. It’s a few blocks away. Those opposed to the construction may not realize how small downtown Manhattan is. Everything is just a few blocks away. _It isn’t a mosque_. It’s a cultural center, which includes prayer space for Islamic prayer. Whether or not that space qualifies as a mosque, I don’t know, but even if it does, it’s just one part of the whole. Speaking as a lifelong New Yorker, I really have no problem with this. Lower Manhattan is full of churches and synagogues. If we are a nation of religious freedom, well, then that freedom applies to Muslims too. ETA: Beaten to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/31 "2010-08-04T15:13:12Z")
Sure, I agree. They are free to do what they wish. But freedom can also mean the freedom to listen to others and do what you might not have initially wished to do, which is what the Catholic Church did when they moved the convent away from Auschwitz. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/32 "2010-08-04T15:18:02Z")
Just to affirm that this is not on the site of anything related to September 11th, I’ll repost this: [here’s a map of lower Manhattan that highlights where this building is relative to the WTC site](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=45-47%20park%20place&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl). I’m not sure why they are calling it 51Park since the address is 45-47 Park Place, but that’s life. Incidentally I see there is [already a mosque very close by](http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/). [It’s over here, about two blocks away from the site.](http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=45-47%20park%20place&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl) Of course it’s probably been there for a while, so it doesn’t make a sexy protest. The Cordoba Initiative name might be using an unrealistically rosy interpretation of history but it does not appear to be a deliberate provocation or anything unusual. Given who these people are and the message they are trying to send, there are only so many options and I see no reason to conclude that the name is not valid. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/33 "2010-08-04T15:22:51Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Manhattan is a big place - there are lots of places for a mosque to go, and indeed there are many there already. Including at the site being argued … but that’s already been addressed. Anderson Cooper asked a decent question of somebody opposing the mosque … just how far away from Ground Zero is far enough to be okay? Two blocks is too close. How about three blocks? Or does the evil Muslim stain cease to be a matter at 4 blocks? Or at Canal Street? Or Mid-Town? Or Harlem? Or Yonkers? What? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/34 "2010-08-04T15:29:06Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Oh sure. They want to ‘Park’ themselves right smack dab in the middle of Ground Zero. And is it any coincidence that 51 is exactly 21 less then 72 (number of virgins in the afterlife) when 21, as everybody knows is the international Muslim code for ‘Black Jack’? I.e. – ‘We Win!’ > > WAKE UP, PEOPLE!! It’s just not the same without a chalkboard ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/35 "2010-08-04T19:44:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t think it’s _per se_ provocative. As **Shodan** hints, I’d change my mind if I discovered it was the winner of a “How Can We Best Say Fuck You to the Great Satan America with an Innocuous-Sounding Name?” contest, but absent that, this name is a non-issue. Gawddammit! It was supposed to be a secret! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/36 "2010-08-04T19:49:30Z")
IMO, ‘Cordoba’ is \*\*\*highly \*\*\*provocative, because that is where Obama was actually born…and he is of course a well known Muslim! or maybe, just possibly, these people can’t come up with any legitimate reason to oppose the site, so they’re just making shit up. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/37 "2010-08-04T19:53:36Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > IMO, ‘Cordoba’ is \*\*\*highly \*\*\*provocative, because that is where Obama was actually born…and he is of course a well known Muslim! … And it’s in Spain! And no one expects the Spanish Inquisition! ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/38 "2010-08-04T19:57:47Z")
And it ends in “oba”… and Obama _starts_ with “oba”! ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/39 "2010-08-04T20:09:26Z")
Furthermore, taking the ‘oba’ out of both names leaves you with ‘corma’, which is an alternative spelling of ‘korma’, which is an Indian dish. And Indians are all Hindu, which although it isn’t the same as being Muslim, is really close, or at least is certainly very much ‘foreign’, and therefore ‘bad’. And we can’t have anything ‘bad’ in New York City! This stuff almost writes itself…where can I get my own conspiracy website? I understand this is Great Debates, and I should probably therefore be taking this issue a bit more seriously, but I honestly don’t think I’m capable. Its either ridicule or rage, and I’m just not feeling that rage-y today. ETA: Damn! taking the ‘oba’ out of both names actually leaves ‘cordma’…but it doesn’t matter. That extra ‘d’ is just to throw people off the scent so they won’t uncover the \*\*\*real \*\*\*truth! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130/40 "2010-08-04T20:31:25Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Furthermore, taking the ‘oba’ out of both names leaves you with ‘corma’, which is an alternative spelling of ‘korma’, which is an Indian dish. And Indians are all Hindu, which although it isn’t the same as being Muslim, is really close, or at least is certainly very much ‘foreign’, and therefore ‘bad’. And we can’t have anything ‘bad’ in New York City! It’s not that simple. Cordoba House has been changed to Park51. The 51 means “skip the first letters”. The next letter is B. The 1 means “take the first letter in the second word”. That’s H. The first letter in Park is P. Park is the first word. Take the letter, therefore, that is before the first letter in Park, which is O. BHO. See where I am going with this? 51 is the number of states in the Union, plus Washington DC. Cordoba has seven letters, but they changed it. So they don’t mean the 57 states that Obama visited. They must mean the 57 varieties of Heinz. Who is married to a Heinz heiress? John Kerry! See the K, which sounds like the C, the first letter in Cordoba? Which is also the last letter in Park! Coincidence? I don’t think so. Obviously, the Muslims are planning (along with our Muslim President - don’t try to deny it - [He’s admitted it](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGdkqfBICw)) to use the ketchup money to take over all 50 states plus the D of C. Which they will rename District of Cordoba. Don’t say I haven’t warned you. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cordoba-house-a-provocative-name/549130.md?page=3)