# Is cornbread bread or cake? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585 "2019-04-15T17:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/81 "2019-04-19T13:04:06Z")
> [@Oly](#): > > But even if you do want to prance around on the surface of things, riddle me this, cornbread-is-bread Einsteins: Would you ever make a _ **sandwich** _— and I’m not talking about a little peanut butter and jelly— but a real Dagwood two-hander can’t-get-it-all-in-one-bite tower— out of _cornbread_?!? > > Case closed. [Sure.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HroP3KCRZG8) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/82 "2019-04-19T13:05:21Z")
I’ve been working on parameters for ‘bread’ and ‘cake.’ Here’s what I have so far: Bread: Bread is made from dough. There are few enough exceptions that they have a specific name: batter bread. However, many batter breads still produce what I would call a very wet dough. Bread uses yeast or a yeast analog to rise. There are few enough exceptions that they have a specific name: unleavened bread. Bread is savory. There are few enough exceptions that sweet breads are usually named that way, as with Hawaiian Sweet Bread. Bread is savory (2). It can feature as a primary or secondary ingredient in any savory dish. Bread uses relatively few ingredients beyond water, yeast, salt, and flour. There are hundreds of bread varieties that differ only in the ratios and treatment of those four ingredients. More ingredients are often reflected in the name of the bread: egg bread, cheese bread, olive bread. The implication is that ‘bread’ is the baseline product and anything beyond is additive by nature. Bread is made from glutenous flour. There are many exceptions here but I think they still qualify as exceptions. Bread is resiliant. Bread must be sliced or torn. It cannot reasonably be eaten with a fork. I can’t think of any exceptions here. Bread is resiliant (2). Bread can serve as a vehicle for other foods, either as toppings or fillings, without losing structural integrity. Cake: Cake is made from batter. I don’t know of any exceptions. Because it is made from batter, cake must be poured into a shaped vessel prior to baking. Cake ingredients are highly variable, and a cake’s name often doesn’t reflect its additional ingredients but rather its function (wedding, coffee), its origin or the origin of its ingredients (Black Forest), its color (devil’s food, yellow, white), or its shape/construction (layer, bundt, sheet). Cake is sweet. The number of exceptions you allow is going to depend on your overall definition of ‘cake.’ Cake is sweet (2). It is almost always eaten as a dessert. Cake toppings are also sweet. Cake is soft. Almost all cake can be eaten with a fork. ---
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/83 "2019-04-19T13:11:32Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > There’s a whole class of batter breads out there, and if you google pix of them, and look and the recipes and taste the, I bet most if not all of you would identify that as bread rather than cake. Curious indeed. I’m going to have to explore, to include making a few of, these “batter breads”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/84 "2019-04-19T13:13:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Cake is made from batter. I don’t know of any exceptions. King Cake, though I suppose you can say that’s not really a cake, but more like a very sweet type of bread. ---
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/85 "2019-04-19T13:18:09Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > [Sure.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HroP3KCRZG8) It just goes to show there are no good, true dignified things in this world that there aren’t YouTube videos out there to mock and lampoon. Whatever that was, it looks good! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/86 "2019-04-19T13:34:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > thanks! I learned something today. 🙂 !חַג שָׂמֵחַ ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/87 "2019-04-19T13:59:22Z")
Cake donuts. Cake or Doughnut? ---
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/88 "2019-04-19T14:16:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I’ve been working on parameters for ‘bread’ and ‘cake.’ Here’s what I have so far: > . Very well thought out. What say ye, based on this system, about cornbread? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/89 "2019-04-19T15:49:00Z")
I make cornbread sandwiches all the time. Of course, my cornbread is cooked in a cast iron skillet, so it has a nice, firm crust to hold everything together. That’s if I’ve just made plain cornbread and not jacked it up a few notches. If I’ve added chilis, cheese, diced ham and such I just eat it straight. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/90 "2019-04-19T15:49:11Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Cake donuts. Cake or Doughnut? [Cake…or death?](https://youtu.be/PVH0gZO5lq0?t=319) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/91 "2019-04-19T16:12:43Z")
> [@Oly](#): > > Very well thought out. What say ye, based on this system, about cornbread? I stand by my original sentiment. It’s cake. Otherwise it’s bread, but made with batter. Bread, but not proofed. Bread, but not made with flour. Bread, but with lots of extra ingredients. Bread, but you can eat it with a fork. Or you can say it’s a cake, but with the savory qualities of a bread, and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/92 "2019-04-20T00:10:11Z")
Voted ‘Depends on how you make it’. The stuff on the West Coast is cake. Probably because decent corn meal is hard to find (I get occasional ‘care’ packages from Mom back home). It should be baked in cast iron. If you are using a cake pan, you are doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/93 "2019-04-20T00:16:49Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Voted ‘Depends on how you make it’. > > The stuff on the West Coast is cake. Probably because decent corn meal is hard to find (I get occasional ‘care’ packages from Mom back home). > > It should be baked in cast iron. If you are using a cake pan, you are doing it wrong. This is the West Coast. _Artisanal_ cast iron. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/94 "2019-04-20T00:20:37Z")
Yes, wheat flour is the default for bread, but it’s also the default for cake. The fact that cornbread isn’t wheat flour can’t tip the needle in either direction. What about tamales, aren’t they made from something more like dough than like batter? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/95 "2019-04-20T00:21:07Z")
Artisanal? Sounds legit. also, corn meal should be properly coarse. Everything here starts off as corn cake mix. I also had corn ice cream in Brentwood. Better than the garlic ice cream in Gilroy. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/96 "2019-04-20T00:30:17Z")
> [@Oly](#): > > So, all the people who say cornbread is bread - explain. What criteria are you using? > > For me, it’s got nothing to do with sweetness or when, how or with what else it’s eaten. It comes down the underlying substrate. Both bread and cake start out the same — fundamentally flour and liquid, +/- an infinitude of other stuff. To make a cake, the proportions of dry and wet are mixed to the consistency of a slurry, a _batter_, which is pourable. With bread, the dry and wet are mixed into a _dough_, which has a variable degree of elasticity, such that you can pick up the whole wad at once (try that with cornbread, or cake, batter). > > This is where the divergence happens - batter vs dough. And that’s why cornbread is cake, because it goes through a batter phase. Not much question in my mind about it, really, at this point. Now, I’m comvicable to another point of view, but you breaders better come up with some good criteria. > > If you were talking about biscuits, then I’d be more inclined to see some gray, as biscuits also go through a batter-like phase. But then by the time that gets rolled out and cut, it’s dough. So biscuits are bread. But that’s fodder for another thread. That’s too many words. Cornbread is, or it i’n’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/97 "2019-04-20T00:53:02Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > Cornbread is, or it i’n’t. Pie are round. Cornbread is square. Old joke. Like all the other correct people in this thread, I make my cornbread in a skillet. ---
**Author:** ![SOJA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@SOJA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SOJA)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/98 "2019-04-20T13:05:28Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > That’s the thing- a _poolish_ like a _biga_ or sourdough starter is what’s known as a pre-ferment. It typically consists of flour, water and yeast. \*Poolish \*is very wet and may have a batter-like consistency but as flour is added, it becomes more dough-like. So it’s both at different points. > > I kind of like the batter/dough distinction- but I wouldn’t call it a phase. I’d say whichever it is just before baking determines cake or bread. Eliminates the problem with those breads that start out batter-like but become dough before being baked. Allthough you still have the biscuit/cookie problem. Yep. That’s why I asked. Yorkshire puddings are pure batter but cook into a steamy bread that puffs up and deflates. It’s a cross between pate a choux and a custardy bread that’s a little more moist than you think it would be, but it’s also capable of sopping up liquids. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/99 "2019-04-20T13:33:48Z")
The one time I made Yorkshire puddings, they came out much more like a squeegee than a sop. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585/100 "2019-04-20T14:52:20Z")
The one time I made Yorkshire pudding, it didn’t rise at all. But my husband makes popovers all the time, which are almost there same thing as Yorkshire pudding. (But made with butter in individual tins, rather than with beef tallow under the roast.) I wouldn’t call popovers bread or cake. I think they are a different flour-based food. (But closer to bread than to cake.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-cornbread-bread-or-cake/832585.md?page=4)