# Is DeLay going down?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 6, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028 "2005-04-06T13:40:00Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/121 "2005-09-30T23:11:43Z")
Awright, in the interest of not being too ignorant, I’m trying to find some additional evidence that would make it clear that Earl generally goes after conservatives, and hence his propensity for indicting Democrats does not necessarily exonerate him from the charge of “partisan hack”, since Texas Democrats are essentially Republicans. Or something like that. Anyone got more info. on this guy beyond the Hutchison affair that might shed light on this? There’s not much out there that I can find (not sure where to look, even) to give a breakdown of those he’s prosecuted, and whether they were all or mostly “conservatives”.
Anyway, I’m not sure if there’s a point here to be made even if such a breakdown can be had. Was there a huge preponderance of what we’d call “conserveatives” in Texas politics, then, be they Pub. or Dem.? Were there even enough “liberals” in office for him to be reasonably expected to have a shot at prosecuting a few to make a fair-looking ratio?
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [September 30, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/122 "2005-09-30T23:59:01Z")
It’s worth reminding that DeLay’s indictment doesn’t come from Earle himself, but from the foreman of the Grand Jury investigating him. Meet [William Gibson:](http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/default.asp?ArID=146685)
> [@](#):
>
> “I like [DeLay’s] aggressiveness and everything, and I had nothing against the House majority man, but I felt that we had enough evidence, not only me, but the other grand jury members,” Gibson said.
>
> The grand jury foreman also takes great exception to accusations that he and 11 other grand jury members followed the lead of Travis County District Attorney Ronnie Earle instead of following the evidence.
>
> “It was not a rubber stamp deal. It was not an overnight deal. If we needed extra information, it was provided to us,” Gibson said.
>
> …Gibson thinks there is enough evidence to convict Delay.
>
> “We would not have handed down an indictment. We would have no-billed the man, if we didn’t feel there was sufficient evidence,” said Gibson.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/123 "2005-10-01T00:28:27Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> It’s worth reminding that DeLay’s indictment doesn’t come from Earle himself, but from the foreman of the Grand Jury investigating him. Meet [William Gibson:](http://www.news8austin.com/content/your_news/default.asp?ArID=146685)
With all due respect to Mr. Gibson’s view… while I have no doubt that there really is probable cause, and I believe he and the other grand jury members followed the law, the presentation of evidence to a grand jury is vastly different than the presentation of evidence at a trial. There is no defense, for example. The prosecutor calls witnesses, and they testify. They are under oath, but there is no cross-examination, and there is no opportunity for a “defense side” to put on witnesses of its own.
So when Gibson says he thinks there is enough evidence to convict, he’s not really necessarily on solid ground. He has only heard one side of the story, without any challenges, reaching a level of probable cause. A conviction must reach beyond a reasonable doubt, and survive defense witnesses and evidence.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/124 "2005-10-01T13:51:09Z")
I’m not a DeLay fan at all, and it’s fine by me if he goes down; but the irony in [this](http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200509301738.asp) is entertaining.
> [@](#):
>
> A new film featuring Travis County, Texas prosecutor Ronnie Earle as he pursued the investigation that led to the indictment of House Majority Leader Tom DeLay portrays Earle less as a partisan figure than as a messianic leader on a mission to rid American politics of the “evil” influence of money.
> …
> “The root of the evil of the corporate and large-monied interest domination of politics is money,” Earle says as he takes the filmmakers on a nighttime drive around Austin. “This is in the Bible. This isn’t rocket science. The root of all evil truly is money, especially in politics. People talk about how money is the mother’s milk of politics. Well, it’s the devil’s brew.”
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/125 "2005-10-01T19:39:50Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> I’m not a DeLay fan at all, and it’s fine by me if he goes down; but the irony in [this](http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200509301738.asp) is entertaining.
And the irony in that excerpt would be . . . ?
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### Author:  [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/126 "2005-10-01T19:57:46Z")
One person seeing it as his mission from god to take down another who feels HE is doing god’s work is the irony I’m seeing.
Enjoy,
Steven
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/127 "2005-10-01T20:09:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> And the irony in that excerpt would be . . . ?
Two ways. On the one hand, DeLay plays to the religious right and gets taken down by a pious crusader; on the other hand people who would be apoplectic about Earle’s rhetoric were he a Republican find themselves cheering him on because he’s not.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/128 "2005-10-01T20:10:08Z")
> [@Mtgman](#):
>
> One person seeing it as his mission from god to take down another who feels HE is doing god’s work is the irony I’m seeing.
That is not an ironic situation in any sense of the word. In fact, in historical perspective, it is too common even to be remarkable.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/129 "2005-10-01T20:13:16Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> . . . on the other hand people who would be apoplectic about Earle’s rhetoric were he a Republican find themselves cheering him on because he’s not.
It’s rather hard to imagine a (modern) Republican using “money is the root of all evil” rhetoric in any setting for any purpose. Yoking such rhetoric to the Bible is in the style, not of Republicans nor Democrats, but of 19th-Century Populists.
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### Author:  [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/130 "2005-10-01T20:32:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> It’s rather hard to imagine a (modern) Republican using “money is the root of all evil” rhetoric in any setting for any purpose. Yoking such rhetoric to the Bible is in the style, not of Republicans nor Democrats, but of 19th-Century Populists.
:rolleyes: Whatever.
The fact remains that in 2005, if a Republican prosecutor was indicting a Democratic senator and citing Biblical sanction for his actions, the Dems would be hitting the roof in outrage at “theocracy,” “blatant violation of SOCAS” and so on.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/131 "2005-10-01T20:34:12Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> people who would be apoplectic about Earle’s rhetoric…
He got it wrong anyway. It’s not money that’s the root of all evil, it’s the _love_ of money.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/132 "2005-10-01T20:42:37Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> He got it wrong anyway. It’s not money that’s the root of all evil, it’s the _love_ of money.
In spiritual terms, perhaps. But in political terms he got it right: In politics, the root of all (or at least a great deal of) evil is the **power** of money.
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### Author:  [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)
#### Post date: [October 1, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/133 "2005-10-01T21:50:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> That is not an ironic situation in any sense of the word. In fact, in historical perspective, it is too common even to be remarkable.
It’s ironic if one sees faith in god as a unifying force which leads everyone to the same truth. That view of faith may or may not be what the clear-eyed skeptic holds, but it is certainly a decent nutshell for most religions, Christianity most certainly included.
Enjoy,
Steven
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/134 "2005-10-02T03:07:47Z")
[David Koresh’s final letter to his lawyer, Dick DeGuerin](http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco208.html)
> [@](#):
>
> Dear Dick,
> As far as our progress is concerned, here is where we stand:
> I have related two messages, from God, to the FBI; one of which concerns present danger to people here in Waco…
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/135 "2005-10-02T03:29:07Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> [David Koresh’s final letter to his lawyer, Dick DeGuerin](http://www.rickross.com/reference/waco/waco208.html)
Koresh? Yeah, heard of him, but I’m not really sure he actually lived in greater metropolitan Waco. Maybe Killeen. Temple. Crawford.
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/136 "2005-10-03T22:30:30Z")
[New Money Laundering Charges, Ahoy!](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/03/politics/04delay-brief.html?hp&ex=1128398400&en=4f9466e0dd81f78c&ei=5094&partner=homepage)
This’ll fix his booty for sure.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [October 3, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/137 "2005-10-03T23:21:23Z")
Love to think so. But Tom DeLay (R-Undead) is one tough sumbitch. As well, Texas politicians are well attuned to the fine nuances of the law. If necessary, they will invent a nuance to attune to. If there is the _slightest_ technicality that can be expanded from a Japanese condom to the Hindenburg, it will be found. Power and money, the Gog and Magog of Texas politics, want Tom DeLay to walk. In all probability, he will.
On the shiny side, the more attention paid him, the better. A stake through the heart will require too much precision, but sunlight’ll git him for sure.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/138 "2005-10-04T00:05:02Z")
> [@furt](#):
>
> The fact remains that in 2005, if a Republican prosecutor was indicting a Democratic senator and citing Biblical sanction for his actions, the Dems would be hitting the roof in outrage at “theocracy,” “blatant violation of SOCAS” and so on.
Huh? Who thinks that a politician’s—any politician’s—personal religious views on ethics constitute a “blatant violation of SOCAS”?
What violates SOCAS is when you try to make the law **impose** a particular religious perspective. Not when you merely express the personal religious convictions that make the law morally meaningful to **you**.
Earle’s remarks are not substantially different from the sort of thing Illinois governor George Ryan, a Republican, said to explain his decision about the death penalty [moratorium](http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=28):
> [@](#):
>
> But what I said in that interview is that I have prayed over this issue. In the end, all of us who believe, who have faith, are taught certain precepts from the time we are young. We are taught what’s right and what’s wrong, whether Christian, Muslim or Jew. We are also taught about eternal life and celebration hereafter.
>
> One of the most fundamental of those religious beliefs is to protect the innocent. As God told Moses in the book of Exodus, it is up to us to show justice and mercy: “Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits. Have nothing to do with a false charge and do not put an innocent or honest person to death, for I will not acquit the guilty.” We weren’t doing a very good job of protecting the innocent in Illinois, until two years ago when I declared what is, in effect, a moratorium on executions.
Nobody squawked about Ryan’s comments violating SOCAS, because they didn’t. Politicians are allowed to talk about how their personal religious beliefs inform their moral view of the law. They’re just not allowed to make laws specifically in order to promote or impose religious beliefs.
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### Author:  [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2005, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/139 "2005-10-04T13:13:01Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#):
>
> [New Money Laundering Charges, Ahoy!](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/03/politics/04delay-brief.html?hp&ex=1128398400&en=4f9466e0dd81f78c&ei=5094&partner=homepage)
>
> This’ll fix his booty for sure.
>
> Daniel
Why wasn’t this charge made originally?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [October 4, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-delay-going-down/298028/140 "2005-10-04T13:43:41Z")
> [@Twin](#):
>
> Why wasn’t this charge made originally?
Worst-case scenario seems to be that the original charge was sloppily made, indicting DeLay for violating a law that didn’t exist at the time of the violation. The prosecutor, under this theory, recognized that, and so he indicted DeLay under a different law that DID apply at the time of the violation.
If so, that bespeaks a certain sloppiness on the prosecutor’s part. However, I don’t think it points to anything illegal or unethical on the prosecutor’s part. If the charges from the second indictment stick, then the prosecutor will have brought a criminal to justice; and if the charges from the second indictment don’t stick, well, the prosecutor still followed proper channels.
Of course, I’m no lawyer, and I could be wrong on this. This is how it looks to my untrained eye.
Daniel
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