# Is Democracy the best form of government? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373 "2012-07-25T19:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/21 "2012-07-25T20:52:56Z")
And look at the other end of the list: you have to go down to #21 on the list (Singapore) before you find your first non-democracy. Then you have a few Gulf emirates (Qatar #36, UAE #38, Oman #41) and then Kuwait barely squeaks in at #50. So out of the top 50, there are 5 nondemocracies, and of those four derive a substantial amount of their wealth from oil revenue. ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/22 "2012-07-25T20:53:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Not the question I asked you nor what I asked you to provide examples of. Saying that democracies failed really is meaningless if you are doing a comparison, since every form of government has a litter of failed examples. You are claiming that democracy isn’t the best but you’ve given no specific examples that demonstrate they are quantifiable better. What is your question? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/23 "2012-07-25T20:54:12Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > For others’ edification, the top ten: > > I’d have to look back at this later, but the primary issue most of those countries face is that the government doesn’t have meaningful control over its own territory; that any government is better than none is pretty well accepted (though not universally so). I’m also not at all sure how you get 9 democracies out of that list. You’d also have to compare how other forms of governments did in those places to get a meaningful comparison. ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/24 "2012-07-25T20:54:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > And look at the other end of the list: you have to go down to #21 on the list (Singapore) before you find your first non-democracy. Then you have a few Gulf emirates (Qatar #36, UAE #38, Oman #41) and then Kuwait barely squeaks in at #50. So out of the top 50, there are 5 nondemocracies, and of those four derive a substantial amount of their wealth from oil revenue. So what does that tell you? There are successful and fail democratic nations on earth, then why is democratic system the best form of government? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/25 "2012-07-25T20:55:44Z")
> [@stardave](#): > > What is your question? What historical examples of systems are you asserting proves you assertion that democracy isn’t the best form of government? ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/26 "2012-07-25T20:56:00Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > There is almost no comparison in which China is favored over the US. It is nonsense to think that China’s political system is better than democracy. I’m glad you think that way, but can you list specific reason for why you think this way? Maybe we can examine them closer. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/27 "2012-07-25T20:56:51Z")
The answer is simple: One that installs me as King and **Elucidator** as my court jester ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/28 "2012-07-25T20:59:09Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > There is almost no comparison in which China is favored over the US. It is nonsense to think that China’s political system is better than democracy. Plus if the OP is seriously using modern China as an example he or she might want to look more closely. For all it’s ecomomic power it’s fissured with problems, many stemming from a lack of representative government. Ironic to use that example on this subject. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/29 "2012-07-25T21:00:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What historical examples of systems are you asserting proves you assertion that democracy isn’t the best form of government? So you want a list of successful none democratic government. How about the Roman empire? How about all the Chinese dynasty? If you want to compare modern day governments, it is harder, because almost all post ww2 nations on earth are democracy. But China’s style of government is rising up and it look like that is another form of government that can have it is own path. However if you want to argue that all successful government on earth are now democratic, then I have the right to argue that most of the nation on earth are democratic, and from these, there are also more failed democracy than successful ones. I can also argue that democracy is not he sole cause for their success. ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/30 "2012-07-25T21:01:36Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Plus if the OP is seriously using modern China as an example he or she might want to look more closely. For all it’s ecomomic power it’s fissured with problems, many stemming from a lack of representative government. Ironic to use that example on this subject. 😛 Go ahead, go list all the things you can think of, and I’ll list all the same problems that representative government United State is facing as well. Be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/31 "2012-07-25T21:01:54Z")
> [@stardave](#): > > So what does that tell you? There are successful and fail democratic nations on earth, then why is democratic system the best form of government? It tells me that when democratic systems succeed, they tend to succeed more than other systems. And when they fail, they tend to fail less totally than other systems. “Best” does not mean “perfect.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/32 "2012-07-25T21:02:03Z")
A government usually works for the best interests of whoever owns it. North Korea has a great government - if you’re Kim Jong Un. Saudi Arabia has a great government - if you’re a member of the Saud family. Myanmar has a great government - if you’re a member of the junta. And the United States has a great government - if you’re a citizen who can vote. That’s the whole basis of why democracy is better than the alternatives; it spreads out ownership of the government to the widest possible group and the government therefore has to serve the best interests of the widest possible group. It’s not perfect. People make mistakes about what’s in their best interests and democratic governments can therefore do things that really shouldn’t be done. But if it’s really a bad idea, the consequences will eventually become obvious and the people will change the course of what the government is doing. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/33 "2012-07-25T21:04:24Z")
> [@stardave](#): > > I’m glad you think that way, but can you list specific reason for why you think this way? Maybe we can examine them closer. I guess you’re being serious. Let’s start off with per capita GDP. US=[$48k](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita), China $5.4k. Ouch. China closely monitors internet traffic and blocks most communication without servers outside of China. The US has almost complete open access to the internet. Environment conditions are lousy in China and improving in the US. Ok, your turn. What do you consider better in China? ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/34 "2012-07-25T21:08:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A government usually works for the best interests of whoever owns it. > > North Korea has a great government - if you’re Kim Jong Un. Saudi Arabia has a great government - if you’re a member of the Saud family. Myanmar has a great government - if you’re a member of the junta. > > And the United States has a great government - if you’re a citizen who can vote. > > That’s the whole basis of why democracy is better than the alternatives; it spreads out ownership of the government to the widest possible group and the government therefore has to serve the best interests of the widest possible group. > > It’s not perfect. People make mistakes about what’s in their best interests and democratic governments can therefore do things that really shouldn’t be done. But if it’s really a bad idea, the consequences will eventually become obvious and the people will change the course of what the government is doing. Good argument, it is true, except when it is not, look at the politics in Philippine and Indonesia, they elected new official every term, but the new ones are just as bad as the old ones, everyone of them promises fighting corruption, everyone of them promise equality, but when they get elected, they will find that all the real power is really concentrated in the hand of some of the very few rich families. One can also argue that in an authoritarian government, yes, when the leadership is corrupted there is no hope, but sometimes the leader can have absolute power to do what is necessary for quick reform that benefits everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/35 "2012-07-25T21:08:29Z")
> [@stardave](#): > > Go ahead, click on each nation, and to go the government section, tell me most of they are not democratically elected. Taking a very generous definition of “democratic,” wherein if the last set of elections weren’t obviously blatantly rigged the country qualifies, and taking Wikipedia at its word: Somalia: No meaningful government whatsoever DPRC: arguably democratic Sudan: Not democratic > [@](#): > > Officially, the politics of Sudan takes place in the framework of a federal presidential representative democratic republic… > > However, following the Second Sudanese Civil War (1983–2005) and the now-low-scale war in Darfur, Sudan is widely recognized as an authoritarian state where all effective political power is obtained by President Omar al-Bashir and the ruling National Congress Party (NCP). Chad: Not democratic Zimbabwe: Not democratic (last set of elections blatantly rigged amid massive pro-regime violence) Afghanistan: Sorta-kinda democratic if you squint Haiti: Kinda democratic Yemen: Really not fucking democratic Iraq: Kinda sorta democratic CAR: kinda sorta democratic So by a very generous definition, that’s five democracies and five nondemocracies. How’s that looking compared to the ratio at the other end of the list? ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/36 "2012-07-25T21:16:59Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I guess you’re being serious. Let’s start off with per capita GDP. US=[$48k](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita), China $5.4k. Ouch. > > China closely monitors internet traffic and blocks most communication without servers outside of China. The US has almost complete open access to the internet. > > Environment conditions are lousy in China and improving in the US. > > Ok, your turn. What do you consider better in China? Thank you for proving specific response. 1. True, this is something they are lacking, but direct censorship does not mean people do not have access to outside world, it just means it takes longer to use proxy. And yes this is somewhere they are lacking for sure 2. Yes, when you look at their per capa compare to UK, of course they come up way short, but is it really fair to compare them with the best in the world? Why not compare China with China itself? Compare their per capa from now to last year, to 10 years ago, to see if there is any improvements. After all the economic reform only started 10 years ago. Oh and of course it is convenient to compare per capa GDP, where it is not even close to the leader, but it is not convenient to compare their national overall GDP to others, because if you do, you can see that they have come from no where during the last 20 years to became the world 2nd largest and this is expected to continue. 1. You know why the pollution is bad in China? This is directly due to the economic expansion, people all over the world complain that China is taking all the jobs, guess what? China is also taking away all of your pollution as well. Everyone open factory in China, everyone pollutes in China, in the end they take the final product and sell back home. And besides China right now is the largest renewable energy prouder in the world,and they are also investing the most in renewable energy as well. The same reason that UK’s pollution was bad during industrial revolution is the same reason for China’s environment. ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/37 "2012-07-25T21:21:58Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Taking a very generous definition of “democratic,” wherein if the last set of elections weren’t obviously blatantly rigged the country qualifies, and taking Wikipedia at its word: > > Somalia: No meaningful government whatsoever > DPRC: arguably democratic > Sudan: Not democratic > > Chad: Not democratic > Zimbabwe: Not democratic (last set of elections blatantly rigged amid massive pro-regime violence) > Afghanistan: Sorta-kinda democratic if you squint > Haiti: Kinda democratic > Yemen: Really not fucking democratic > Iraq: Kinda sorta democratic > CAR: kinda sorta democratic > > So by a very generous definition, that’s five democracies and five nondemocracies. How’s that looking compared to the ratio at the other end of the list? So 5/10 are democratic, where rest of them have some sort of democratic system, but you think they are not up to standard. Ok, so you agree that HALF of the most failing nation on earth have some form of democratic system. Oh and feel free to go down the list more, do #11-30, see the ratio of democratic vs none democratic. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/38 "2012-07-25T21:22:34Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > So by a very generous definition, that’s five democracies and five nondemocracies. How’s that looking compared to the ratio at the other end of the list? Indeed, I can’t think of a single top ten country in terms of well-being for the average person that isn’t at least as much of a democracy as the “failed states”. Heck, I’d rather live in Greece than Afghanistan right now even if Greece isn’t in the top 10. China is good for wealthy individuals – and just by pure luck there have to be _some_ wealthy individuals in China because it’s so huge – but for the average person, not so much compared to the Anglosphere or Western Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/39 "2012-07-25T21:26:32Z")
This is likely an exercise in futility (anybody who can possible hold up China as a beacon for non-democracies is not debating with all the facts). You didn’t mention what you think is better. > [@stardave](#): > > 1. True, this is something they are lacking, but direct censorship does not mean people do not have access to outside world, it just means it takes longer to use proxy. That, and the chance of going to prison for a long time. > [@stardave](#): > > 1. Yes, when you look at their per capa compare to UK, of course they come up way short, but is it really fair to compare them with the best in the world? Why not compare China with China itself? Compare their per capa from now to last year, to 10 years ago, to see if there is any improvements. After all the economic reform only started 10 years ago. First, the US isn’t first on that list (14th, actually). Second, comparing how far China has come is completely meaningless (unless they were previously a democracy). Come back when China has a per-capita GDP comparable to the US. > [@stardave](#): > > 1. You know why the pollution is bad in China? This is directly due to the economic expansion, people all over the world complain that China is taking all the jobs, guess what? Baloney. The US has had economic expansion in the last 40 years and pollution is, overall, getting _better_. ---
**Author:** ![stardave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@stardave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stardave)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373/40 "2012-07-25T21:29:50Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Indeed, I can’t think of a single top ten country in terms of well-being for the average person that isn’t at least as much of a democracy as the “failed states”. Heck, I’d rather live in Greece than Afghanistan right now even if Greece isn’t in the top 10. China is good for wealthy individuals – and just by pure luck there have to be _some_ wealthy individuals in China because it’s so huge – but for the average person, not so much compared to the Anglosphere or Western Europe. Well yes, if you are used to living in California or London, your quality of life in China will be dramatically deceases. But again, you are compare the best of the world to a developing nation. Why not compare China with China, I don’t compare you with Bill Gates, but it does not mean your life is shit, the average quality of people’s life have improve hugely since the successful economics reform. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-democracy-the-best-form-of-government/629373.md?page=3)