# Is Dick Cheney right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833 "2009-04-21T13:09:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/21 "2009-04-21T14:41:43Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > My view is that some of this is definitely political. Nobody wants to defend torture solely for torture’s sake. But if it got good and relevant results. (Lives saved, etc), then the whole issue becomes a little bit more murky, and it’s not so easy for Obama to claim he has sole possession of the high ground. The last thing Obama wants to answer is the question “If torturing a suspect would get information that might save a hundred lives, would you do it?” if it has some basis in fact. Your second quoted sentence is correct: even Bush and Cheney lied to claim we did not use torture. As to the rest: meh. Showing that we actually got useful information after torturing someone fails to defend the torture because we do not know that we would have failed to get the information without torture. It also fails to take into account the number of recruits that we promoted for the enemy who might have stayed neutral had their family or friends not been tortured (and murdered) and the numbers of civilians and our troops who were tortured and murdered in retaliation. It is always possible that any given torture of an individual provided some reliable information, but even that information remains suspect in the fog of false statements made by those who are attempting to escape pain. The only thing that Cheney’s call could do would be to provide a clear example of confirmation bias. _Look! We got these three pieces of useful information among the 20,000 false leads from several hundred tortured prisoners! It works!_ ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/22 "2009-04-21T14:49:01Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > No. It’s definitely only 14, if you call insect boxes and rough treatment torture. IIRC, only 2 people were waterboarded. Not hundreds or thousands. Oh well, that makes it all better. There’s an old joke: A man is sitting in a pub nursing a pint and looking down. A fellow pub patron asks him why he looks so glum, chum. The man says: "For 10 years as a child I made model airplanes that I sold to neighborhood children. But do they call me John the Airpane Maker? No. As a young adult, I worked as a carpenter and I did repairs on every house in the county. But do they call me John the Carpenter? No. I ultimately made my living in construction, building bridges over every river in this part of the country. But do they call me John the Bridge Builder? No. But you fuck one goat …" ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/23 "2009-04-21T14:50:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Could information have been gotten via other means? Do you really think Bush and everybody else through the chain of command would have approved something like waterboarding if all other options hadn’t already been exhausted? Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times (He must have been one tough SOB). If a guy can put up with 183 waterboardings, what other means do you think would be successful? He finally gave up the al Queda leader in Britain, as well as lots of other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/24 "2009-04-21T14:52:03Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Oh well, that makes it all better. I didn’t say that. I was just correcting the bloated claims of “hundreds, thousands, millions, maybe even BILLIONS!!!”. Lets just deal with the facts instead of hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/25 "2009-04-21T15:16:35Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Do you really think Bush and everybody else through the chain of command would have approved something like waterboarding if all other options hadn’t already been exhausted? Yes. > [@Sinaijon](#): > > Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times (He must have been one tough SOB). If a guy can put up with 183 waterboardings, what other means do you think would be successful? The means that have been used for decades in this country, and worked with him: fucking _talking_ to him. Bashing a guy’s head against a concrete wall is much less effective than making him feel like you’re on his side and he should tell you what he knows. Although then you don’t get to feel like Jack Bauer. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/26 "2009-04-21T15:21:47Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times (He must have been one tough SOB). If a guy can put up with 183 waterboardings, what other means do you think would be successful? He finally gave up the al Queda leader in Britain, as well as lots of other stuff. The fact that you consider this to be some sort of validation of the use of torture really tells me all I need to know about you. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/27 "2009-04-21T15:23:27Z")
> [@](#): > > …He finally gave up the al Queda leader in Britain, as well as lots of other stuff. Cites? Proof? That “…as well as lots of other stuff…” cries out for clarification. Oh, yeah. Because the impression forming in my mind is not that these guys (him and Zubaydah) are innocent lambs, but that they were presented to us as being high-value targets when they were no such thing. How many times have we been lied to about these things? How many times have they killed/captured the “number 3 AlQ leader” in wherever? Remember when they said they had wiped out 75% of AlQ leadership? Here’s what I think happened: BushCo convinced themselves that these guys were the bee’s knees, the Big Kauhunas. They trumpeted their capture as being proof of their wisdom and power, but intelligence was not flowing in the gushing torrent they expected. “Well, that is clearly proof that they are holding back some very heavy stuff! Because we already know that they are very heavy players! Hell, KSM already confessed to plotting 9/11 AND kidnapping the Lindbergh Baby! Better apply some more torture, get them to give up what they are hiding!” I think the picture thats developing is that these guys were just a couple of AlQ shmucks of no particular importance, and the poor dumb bastards were being tortured for refusing to give up what they didn’t have in the first place! [http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/world/middleeast/18zubaydah.html?\_r=2&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/world/middleeast/18zubaydah.html?_r=2&hp) > [@](#): > > The first use of waterboarding and other rough treatment against a prisoner from Al Qaeda was ordered by senior Central Intelligence Agency officials despite the belief of interrogators that the prisoner had already told them all he knew, according to former intelligence officials and a footnote in a newly released legal memorandum. > > The escalation to especially brutal interrogation tactics against the prisoner, Abu Zubaydah, including confining him in boxes and slamming him against the wall, was ordered by officials at C.I.A. headquarters based on a highly inflated assessment of his importance, interviews and a review of newly released documents show… (emphasis added with revulsion) [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/19/AR2006061901211\_pf.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/19/AR2006061901211_pf.html) According to a recent book by reporter Ron Suskind of the _WaPost_ (_Shadow War_, Simon and Shuster)… > [@](#): > > …Abu Zubaydah, his captors discovered, turned out to be mentally ill and nothing like the pivotal figure they supposed him to be. CIA and FBI analysts, poring over a diary he kept for more than a decade, found entries “in the voice of three people: Hani 1, Hani 2, and Hani 3” – a boy, a young man and a middle-aged alter ego. All three recorded in numbing detail “what people ate, or wore, or trifling things they said.” Dan Coleman, then the FBI’s top al-Qaeda analyst, told a senior bureau official, “This guy is insane, certifiable, split personality.” > > Abu Zubaydah also appeared to know nothing about terrorist operations; rather, he was al-Qaeda’s go-to guy for minor logistics – travel for wives and children and the like. That judgment was “echoed at the top of CIA and was, of course, briefed to the President and Vice President,” Suskind writes. And yet somehow, in a speech delivered two weeks later, President Bush portrayed Abu Zubaydah as “one of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States.” And over the months to come, under White House and Justice Department direction, the CIA would make him its first test subject for harsh interrogation techniques… So. They tell Bush “Mr. President, this guys is barking mad and doesn’t know shit.” And what does Bush tell us? “[O]ne of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States.” You want me to believe a word these guys say? Catch them telling the truth would be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/28 "2009-04-21T15:23:43Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Do you really think Bush and everybody else through the chain of command would have approved something like waterboarding if all other options hadn’t already been exhausted? Cheney and his underlings invaded Iraq without exhausting all the other options, leading predictably to the deaths of thousands. If he and his minions did that, then I suspect they regarded torture as the first option, not the last. ---
**Author:** ![Hentzau](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/df788c/32.png) [@Hentzau](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentzau)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/29 "2009-04-21T15:27:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Yes. > > The means that have been used for decades in this country, and worked with him: fucking _talking_ to him. Bashing a guy’s head against a concrete wall is much less effective than making him feel like you’re on his side and he should tell you what he knows. Although then you don’t get to feel like Jack Bauer. Yep. Here’s one of the most successful interragators in history: > **[Hanns Scharff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff)** > > Hanns-Joachim Gottlob Scharff (16 December 1907 – 10 September 1992) was a German Luftwaffe interrogator during the Second World War. He has been called the "Master Interrogator" of the Luftwaffe, and possibly all of Nazi Germany; he has also been praised for his contribution to shaping U.S. interrogation techniques after the war. As an Hauptgefreiter (approximately equivalent to NATO rank code OR-3), he was responsible for interrogating captured American fighter pilots after he became an interro... …and he did it by talking with his subjects. If we can’t find out what we need to know by talking, we need to get better at talking. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/30 "2009-04-21T15:27:50Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > No. It’s definitely only 14, if you call insect boxes and rough treatment torture. IIRC, only 2 people were waterboarded. Not hundreds or thousands. Actually, it is only 14 if you 1) accept that we have admitted to every act we committed and 2) accept only the narrowest definition of torture and 3) limit it to only Guatanamo. Given the number of prisoners abused at Abu Ghraib and other locations in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as a less (arbitrarily) restricted definition of torture, combined with the fact that there are probably incidents that contain information we still do not want released, hundreds is probably a better estimate. I would agree that thousands might be too broad–we probably have not yet captured enough prisoners to reach that number. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/31 "2009-04-21T15:29:58Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > . . . tells me all I need to know about you. Let’s leave the personal observations for the **BBQ Pit**. They are not part of the discussion. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/32 "2009-04-21T15:30:13Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Do you really think Bush and everybody else through the chain of command would have approved something like waterboarding if all other options hadn’t already been exhausted? Not only do I think it, I have proof of it. > [@](#): > > I personally conducted more than 300 interrogations, and I supervised more than 1,000. The methods my team used are not classified (they’re listed in the unclassified Field Manual), but the way we used them was, I like to think, unique. We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of “ruses and trickery”). It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi. > > \ > > I know the counter-argument well – that we need the rough stuff for the truly hard cases, such as battle-hardened core leaders of al-Qaeda, not just run-of-the-mill Iraqi insurgents. But that’s not always true: We turned several hard cases, including some foreign fighters, by using our new techniques. A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, “I thought you would torture me, and when you didn’t, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That’s why I decided to cooperate.” > > \ > > We’re told that our only options are to persist in carrying out torture or to face another terrorist attack. But there truly is a better way to carry out interrogations – and a way to get out of this false choice between torture and terror. > > SOURCE: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242\_pf.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242_pf.html) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/33 "2009-04-21T15:35:01Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > Do you really think Bush and everybody else through the chain of command would have approved something like waterboarding if all other options hadn’t already been exhausted? Absolutely. When the CIA started getting involved, they were met with objections from both the FBI and the military guys who were doing the initial questioning. It is clear from several accounts that the CIA decided to “jump start” a process that was well under way without the use of torture. I doubt that Bush and Cheney actually got their hands dirty approving any specific torture; they simply accepted reports from underlings that we needed to “get tough,” had their pet lawyers disgrace themselves with erratic and wholly contrived opinions, and issued a “make it so” declaration. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/34 "2009-04-21T15:35:52Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > No. It’s definitely only 14, if you call insect boxes and rough treatment torture. IIRC, only 2 people were waterboarded. Not hundreds or thousands. Weren’t there at least two people who were killed at Abu Ghraib? ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/35 "2009-04-21T15:38:11Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > I didn’t say that. I was just correcting the bloated claims of “hundreds, thousands, millions, maybe even BILLIONS!!!”. > > Lets just deal with the facts instead of hyperbole. Do you have a cite that there were only 14? Does this include the people we’ve [rendered](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States#Example_cases) to countries where we knew they would then be [tortured](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/torture-humanrights)? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/36 "2009-04-21T15:38:18Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Amen. If Dick Cheney tells you the sky is blue, you’d better check again. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day, so statistically speaking sooner or later he’ll fuck up and tell the truth if even by accident (albeit not in this case). “In the interests of national security,” is the “Won’t someone think of the children?” of the 2000s; a generic, all-purpose, more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger rationalization for any occasion. At this point, Dick Cheney is less relevant to national politics than Brittany Spears. And the, “We’ve had espionage successes to offset our bullshit failures” argument used by CIA apologists for all manner of infractions is more tired than a marathoner at mile 22. One can only imagine how they’ll cherry pick the “successes” and keep the manifest failures classified. Declassify the whole lot of intelligence about Iraq and the subsequent occupation (little of which can be terribly relevant at this point to future operations) or leave it all black. This releasing of select memos generated by a bunch of arse-licking REMFs is just waving a monkey puppet at the American public. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/37 "2009-04-21T15:42:56Z")
> [@](#): > > One actually told me, “I thought you would torture me, and when you didn’t, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That’s why I decided to cooperate.” This is all that needs to be said to answer the thread title. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/38 "2009-04-21T15:47:38Z")
Not one person has actually addressed the meat of Cheney’s complaint. Cheney says the release of the torture memos without the release of the valuable information obtained by the techniques in question presents an unbalanced picture, and is therefore calling for the release of that information. There’s a huge amount of discussion on how wrong Cheney always is, on whether or not torture does actually work, and how bad it was to invade Iraq. No one has answered the basic question. by releasing the torture techniques details without also releasing any success stories, is an unbalanced or unfair inference created? Why or why not? (Note for the reflexive responders: I don’t take a position on the question. I just note that it hasn’t been directly addressed.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/39 "2009-04-21T15:50:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So. They tell Bush “Mr. President, this guys is barking mad and doesn’t know shit.” And what does Bush tell us? “[O]ne of the top operatives plotting and planning death and destruction on the United States.” Actually it’s even worse than that. They tell Bush “he’s barking mad and doesn’t know shit”, Bush says “he’s a terrorist mastermind” AND THEN orders the CIA guys to torture him for info. Which they _do_. Even though they know for fact that he’s barking mad and doesn’t know shit. How’s that for a mindfuck ? I wonder if they somehow managed to convinced themselves he really was a terrorist mastermind between the time the info went up, and the time garbage came back down. After all, we are at war with Eurasia. We have always been at war with Eurasia. ETA : [QUOTE=Stranger on a Train] Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day, so statistically speaking sooner or later he’ll fuck up and tell the truth if even by accident (albeit not in this case). [/QUOTE] That gave me a laugh. “Mr. Cheney, what color is the sky, please ?” “Blue. NO ! Fuck ! Red ! God dammit.” ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/40 "2009-04-21T15:52:29Z")
> [@Hentzau](#): > > Yep. Here’s one of the most successful interragators in history: > > [Hanns Scharff - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Scharff) > > …and he did it by talking with his subjects. If we can’t find out what we need to know by talking, we need to get better at talking. Eric Maddox appears to be in a similar vein. He masterminded the intelligence that lead to the capture of Hussein. > **[Mission: Black List #1: The Inside Story of the Search for Saddam Hussein-As...](https://www.amazon.com/Mission-Hussein-As-Soldier-Masterminded-Capture/dp/006171447X)** > > Mission: Black List #1: The Inside Story of the Search for Saddam Hussein-As Told by the Soldier Who Masterminded His Capture \[Maddox, Eric, Seay, Davin\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Mission: Black List #1: The Inside Story of... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833.md?page=3)