# Is Dick Cheney right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2009, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833 "2009-04-21T13:09:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/161 "2009-04-23T13:18:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So the response is that torture fails to achieve its goals of protection that are claimed. Experts in the field note that it is a very poor means of gaining useful information and better, non-torture methods exist. Use of torture also likely puts you at MORE risk because the people tortured and their brethren are likely to be really cheesed off and want vengeance thus spurring their efforts to come bash in your door and get you. It also diminishes our standing in the world with all kinds of knock on effects from that. > > In short, it fails on the moral count and fails on the pragmatic count. > > End of discussion. Well that’s the end of the discussion if the other participants are won over by your arguments. If not, then it’s not, and you’re reduced to either continuing to debate effectiveness, which you don’t want to do, or stopping in mid-discussion, which is not likely to be productive. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/162 "2009-04-23T13:20:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But if you argue that it doesn’t work, they say that it does. And if you ask for evidence they say that it’s secret. Odd that you would say that, because in this case the exact opposite is true - which is the basis for the entire discussion. Dick Cheney is the one asking for the evidence to be publicized, and those who claim that it’s not effective are the ones reluctant to do this. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/163 "2009-04-23T13:30:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Well that’s the end of the discussion if the other participants are won over by your arguments. If not, then it’s not, and you’re reduced to either continuing to debate effectiveness, which you don’t want to do, or stopping in mid-discussion, which is not likely to be productive. What production then you expect? If it is to find a justification for torture history shows that torture is justified only to seek certification that a rotten policy is a valid one to take. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/164 "2009-04-23T13:42:42Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Odd that you would say that, because in this case the exact opposite is true - which is the basis for the entire discussion. Dick Cheney is the one asking for the evidence to be publicized, and those who claim that it’s not effective are the ones reluctant to do this. Looking at most of the evidence mentioned, so far it is clear that the effort is to just release the bits that support the effectiveness of it, while the evidence of not being effective or damaging\* will remain hidden. - Of special interest is the evidence of what information was gained with torture to establish a connection of Al-queda with Iraq. I would really like to get more evidence to show that it is really dangerous and reckless to ignore that torture is very effective to mislead or create evidence to justify an invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/165 "2009-04-23T14:25:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Looking at most of the evidence mentioned, so far it is clear that the effort is to just release the bits that support the effectiveness of it, while the evidence of not being effective or damaging\* will remain hidden. Irrelevant even if true. Cheney is not in control, and Obama can release whatever he wants. (I did not understand your prior post.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/166 "2009-04-23T14:30:56Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Odd that you would say that, because in this case the exact opposite is true - which is the basis for the entire discussion. Dick Cheney is the one asking for the evidence to be publicized, and those who claim that it’s not effective are the ones reluctant to do this. Not sure what you are trying to argue here. It is the end of the discussion. If someone tells you the sun rises in the west and you show them it rises in the east but they insist on arguing it rises in the west then the discussion is effectively over. Sure you have not convinced them but they have shown that there is no convincing them and that they will persist in their irrationality. Any effort on your part after that is wasted so, end of discussion. It bothers me that even lip service need to be paid to whether torture is effective or not. Arguing about whether torture is ok is perilously close to the classic slippery slope argument (e.g. “Would you kill one innocent child if it resulted in utopia? Yes? Ok, how about ten? A hundred? A thousand? A million?”). You end up on a scary road where the end justifies the means no matter how hideous those means are. The immorality of it all should by far trump the rest. To engage on whether it is effective is to sideline that rather powerful argument. Sometimes our ideals and morality should trump more earthly concerns such as safety. At what price do we guarantee our safety? Is no price too high? As a realistic matter however I can see the usefulness of going so far as to note to a torture advocate that there is no real practical use for torture either to get them off the notion that there might be something there. If they refuse to see that torture is provably counterproductive to their or this country’s safety then screw 'em. Discussion over. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/167 "2009-04-23T14:37:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is the end of the discussion. If someone tells you the sun rises in the west and you show them it rises in the east but they insist on arguing it rises in the west then the discussion is effectively over. > > Sure you have not convinced them but they have shown that there is no convincing them and that they will persist in their irrationality. Any effort on your part after that is wasted so, end of discussion. That depends on how many people think the sun rises in the west. If enough people think so, your position that they are irrational does not end the discussion. (I would note, BTW, that as the author of an OP claiming that torture is highly effective, I obviously disagree with your claim that this belief is irrational. Nonetheless, my position here is accepting of your claim that this belief is in fact irrational.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/168 "2009-04-23T14:45:55Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > That depends on how many people think the sun rises in the west. If enough people think so, your position that they are irrational does not end the discussion. My position that there no use in my trying to convince them otherwise does make it the end of the discussion. If it is one or one million people if they _refuse_ to accept the overwhelmingly persuasive evidence right before their eyes then it is a waste of my time to continue trying. > [@](#): > > (I would note, BTW, that as the author of an OP claiming that torture is highly effective, I obviously disagree with your claim that this belief is irrational. Nonetheless, my position here is accepting of your claim that this belief is in fact irrational.) Guess I will have to take my argument for this over there. We’ve gone around this one before here though (if perhaps not in an OP dedicated to it) and my recollection is that premise gets shot down rather completely. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/169 "2009-04-23T14:51:37Z")
The question isn’t: “is it effective?”. The question is: “is it more effective than other methods?”. If I get you to admit you stole my Twinkies by beating you with a nine iron, does that mean that was the best way to determine the information? Or could I have gone about it another way? If so, I’m just a guy who beat someone up with a golf club. My point is … for the trillionth time now … the ends don’t justify the means. Even if a torturer gets valid information from whom he’s torturing, that still makes him a torturer. The very fact that Americans - we moral sterling shinging bright spots of virtue in the world - are condoning torture of any kind is fucking baffling to me. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/170 "2009-04-23T14:56:06Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The very fact that Americans - we moral sterling shinging bright spots of virtue in the world - are condoning torture of any kind is fucking baffling to me. What kind of scares me is that it took less than 8 years for us, as a nation, to go from “Of COURSE torture is wrong…what are you, a lunatic?!” to “USA! Fuck yeah! Torture, torture, torture!” I wonder what other morally vile practices the American psyche can be convinced are “effective”? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/171 "2009-04-23T15:00:21Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What kind of scares me is that it took less than 8 years for us, as a nation, to go from “Of COURSE torture is wrong…what are you, a lunatic?!” to “USA! Fuck yeah! Torture, torture, torture!” > > I wonder what other morally vile practices the American psyche can be convinced are “effective”? Slippery slope in action. Scary huh? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/172 "2009-04-23T15:11:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Slippery slope in action. > > Scary huh? It really brings home the fallacy of “It can’t happen here!”\* Or even the fallacy that the American people are some sort of special breed of humanity that are Always Good. \*Yeah, I know…Sinclair Lewis, 1935. Like some vaccinations, it appears that booster shots are occasionally necessary. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/173 "2009-04-23T15:21:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What kind of scares me is that it took less than 8 years for us, as a nation, to go from “Of COURSE torture is wrong…what are you, a lunatic?!” to “USA! Fuck yeah! Torture, torture, torture!” It was virtually overnight. All it took was a good scare. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/174 "2009-04-23T15:29:22Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > True. Otherwise, how do you explain waterboarding someone 83 times in a month, or even 183 times in a month? [cite](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/66622.html) > > This wasn’t to get information. It was because they were “bad guys”. You don’t get higher quality or more information out of someone the 156th time you waterboard them. Cite? _I keed, I keed_ ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/175 "2009-04-23T18:13:43Z")
Rachel Maddow had [a really excellent summary](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/30356488#30356488) of the various reports, memos and the Senate Arms Services Committee Report on her April 23 show. She explained how two completely different US government entities - the military and the CIA - used the same techniques, and how the decision to use these techniques was made _before_ the US had captured any new al Queda suspects. And, how they interrogators had been getting good information using traditional techniques (aka talking to people) but they didn’t get what the Bush administration wanted - a connection between al Queda and Saddam Hussien. I know she has liberal cooties, but torture and the rule of law is not a liberal vs conservative issue. This is a Rhodes Scholar with a Phd in Political Science explaining a political issue in a very clear and concise manner and establishing the chain of events. Please watch it. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/176 "2009-04-23T18:18:46Z")
This claim would appear to be contradicted by the [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&sq=torture%20cia%20bush&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all), who claim that the impetus came from the CIA. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/177 "2009-04-23T18:39:01Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This claim would appear to be contradicted by the [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&sq=torture%20cia%20bush&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all), who claim that the impetus came from the CIA. Not an accurate statement. The article says: Today, asked how it happened, Bush administration officials are finger-pointing. Some blame the C.I.A., while some former agency officials blame the Justice Department or the White House. …and… C.I.A. interrogators were ordered to waterboard one of the captives despite their belief that he had no more information to divulge. That doesn’t look like “came from the CIA” to me. The way I read it supports Maddow’s position that it came from the top down - Bush/Cheny -\> George Tenant -\> CIA interrogators. Please do me a favor and watch the clip. Her logic seemed pretty solid to me. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/178 "2009-04-23T18:40:02Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This claim would appear to be contradicted by the [NY Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22detain.html?_r=1&sq=torture%20cia%20bush&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all), who claim that the impetus came from the CIA. Given that you responded 5 minutes after gaffa’s post and the video clip is 13 minutes long, it’s clear you didn’t watch it. Because if you had, you’d very easily find out that there’s absolutely nothing contradictory between the link you provided and what gaffa provided. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/179 "2009-04-23T18:49:09Z")
My company blocks most videos. From the NYT: > [@](#): > > The program began with Central Intelligence Agency leaders in the grip of an alluring idea: They could get tough in terrorist interrogations without risking legal trouble by adopting a set of methods used on Americans during military training. > [@](#): > > the top two C.I.A. officials who were pushing the program > [@](#): > > George J. Tenet, the C.I.A. director who insisted that the agency had thoroughly researched its proposal and pressed it on other officials > [@](#): > > former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation > [@](#): > > But it was the C.I.A. that was proposing the methods > [@](#): > > Mr. Tenet told Ms. Rice, then the national security adviser, he wanted to discuss interrogation, several former officials said. At a series of small-group and individual briefings attended by Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Ms. Rice and Attorney General John Ashcroft, Mr. Tenet and his deputy, John McLaughlin, laid out their case. > > They made a persuasive duo, former officials who heard their pitch recalled ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833/180 "2009-04-23T19:52:17Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > But if you argue that it doesn’t work, they say that it does. And if you ask for evidence they say that it’s secret. Odd that you would say that, because in this case the exact opposite is true - which is the basis for the entire discussion. Dick Cheney is the one asking for the evidence to be publicized, and those who claim that it’s not effective are the ones reluctant to do this. [/QUOTE] The people who claim that it’s ineffective can’t produce the evidence of it being effective because _ **it doesn’t exist** _. Are you next going to ask me, the atheist, for my proof of God’s existence ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dick-cheney-right/493833.md?page=10)