# Is diversity good for all nations, or only white nations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310 "2015-06-12T02:48:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/41 "2015-06-12T13:22:31Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Linguistic imperialism would be if we were forcing a language upon another country. Mandating a single language within one’s own country is just common sense. Obviously its impossible to enforce what language is spoken at home but on the other hand a single language should be instructed in all schools and be the language of government/street signs etc. Your “just common sense” is someone else’s “cultural genocide.” This is the same argument that was used to aggressively (and sometimes successfully) exterminate indigenous minority languages and their cultures throughout the world. When you don’t provide schooling in a language, you are making a powerful statement about the relevance of and opportunities for speakers of that language. There’s no reason someone couldn’t get a high school and college degree by means of Spanish—people do it all the time in many countries. Or through Navajo, or anything else. It’s a question of whether people value it enough to devote the resources to it. What is common sense is bilingualism. You learn your ethnic language, and a national language, and there need be no conflict between the two. A lot of English speakers seem to think that people can’t really be bilingual, or are threatened by hearing something they personally can’t understand. If I had a 100% Navajo-medium education, and lived in an area with Navajo roadsigns, that doesn’t mean I can’t communicate with someone from New York. We’d use English for that. My family, like so many others, switched to English in the 20th century. I have only ever picked up a little of my heritage language, which isn’t taught anywhere, and which I can never learn. Even if I did, I can’t share it with most of my living family. That’s one thing for me; you emigrate, you lose culture. It’s quite another for the speakers of indigenous languages and the Spanish speakers in the Southwest and the French speakers in Louisiana, who were already in place when English rolled in. ---
**Author:** ![LonghornDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@LonghornDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonghornDave)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/42 "2015-06-12T13:58:02Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Tell that to Houston. We’ve got plenty of examples of dual language street signs, in English and either Chinese or Vietnamese. And Houston isn’t exactly “liberal mecca”. It just makes good sense culturally and economically to recognize reality. Yes, Houston is the most ethnically diverse major city in the U.S. [Houston Region Grows More Racially/Ethnically Diverse](http://kinder.rice.edu/uploadedFiles/Urban_Research_Center/Media/Houston%20Region%20Grows%20More%20Ethnically%20Diverse%202-13.pdf) Anglos - 39.7% Latinos - 35.3% Blacks - 16.8% Asians - 6.5% Multiracial - 1.3% ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/43 "2015-06-12T14:13:42Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Most diverse or least Black? Most diverse. The parts that are mostly-Non-Black (like the Northern Cape province) don’t function all that well either. > [@](#): > > If you have looked at these statistics, is there a point beyond which becoming predominantly non-Black correlates with functioning less well? I don’t understand the question? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/44 "2015-06-12T14:23:16Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Lego got a shit storm their way a few years back when they made a series about Mauri warriors. …are you talking about the people of the ancient kingdom Mauretania, or the people of Aotearoa? Because if its the latter the very least you could do is spell the name right to make it clear what you are talking about. Lego didn’t apparently make a series about Maori Warriors. I assume you are talking about this: > **[Maoris win Lego battle](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/31/andrewosborn)** > > The Danish toy maker Lego said yesterday that it would not loot ethnic cultures for exotic new product names after Maori tribes in New Zealand challenged its right to use Polynesian names in a new game called Bionicle. > [@](#): > > However, Roma Hippolite of the Ngati Koata Trust said: “We have been impressed by the willingness of Lego to recognise a hurt was inadvertently made and show that in their actions.” As the resident Maori on these boards I’ll just say that from my point of view it was very cool of Lego to listen to Maori and to do what they did without creating a shit storm. Good on them. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/45 "2015-06-12T14:43:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Japan is [98.5% Japanese](http://www.indexmundi.com/japan/ethnic_groups.html). Most people would consider that as a 'lack of diversity". > > Would you say that there are any non-diverse nations on earth? > > Regards, > Shodan I posed my question in the hope that it would prompt people to research for themselves and think on their own. Obviously it didn’t work in your case. So according to some sketchy website you found, 98.5% of Japan is Japanese. Did you even think about what you copied before you pasted it? You could probably replace the country and nationality terms with the American equivalents and it would make about the same sense, to wit: America is 98.5% American. Are you enlightened? ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/46 "2015-06-12T14:52:12Z")
It seems that the consensus among progressives in this thread is that diversity is good for all nations. So adding more Middle Easterners to Europe would improve outcomes? Adding some new ethnic groups to the Middle East would be beneficial? Adding some new Europeans and Asians to South Africa would be positive? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think it counts as diversity if different ethnic groups are present but all hate each other. Diversity is when different ethnic groups can live and work together. Isn’t that a bit disingenuous, though? You define diversity as something that can only be positive, and then say diversity is always good. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/47 "2015-06-12T14:52:37Z")
_Addressed to **Isamu** _ We were talking about ethnicity, not citizenship. Do you believe there are any non-diverse nations on earth? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/48 "2015-06-12T15:17:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > _Addressed to **Isamu** _ > > We were talking about ethnicity, not citizenship. > > Do you believe there are any non-diverse nations on earth? > > Regards, > Shodan Yeah, I know. Please learn how to express your ideas more clearly. The point is that Japan is not ‘homogenous’ in terms of ethnicity. It shouldn’t be the go-to example when people want to talk about a ‘homogenous’ society. Every time people say Japan is an ethnically homogenous country is a slap in the face to people who live in Japan but don’t identify as ethnically Japanese. It’s not homogenous. Is that difficult? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/49 "2015-06-12T15:26:03Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Well depends. A few signs in tourist-heavy areas downtown or signs for historical purposes (ie ones in French for New Orleans) are different from having every last signs for cul-de-sacs be multilingual… > > There is a difference between countries (such as Canada and Switzerland) that had multiple dominant languages from its founding as opposed to the United States where English has always been the single language of prominence. Even the former are not that amenable to incorporating new official languages-try asking the Swiss about immigrants for example. That said, the trend in general has been to move towards a single language in order to facilitate national unity, communication, and commerce-one need only look at particular dialects of French and German becoming standard throughout those countries. Additionally countries that successfully established an official language tend to be less plagued by secessionism and other political nuisances one observes in Quebec, Catalonia, or even in the obnoxious “Swedish party” in Finland. San Antonio had street signs in English, German & Spanish back at the previous turn of the century. Anti-German sentiment from the WW1 changed that but there are [German Texans](http://germantexans.org/german-classes/san-antonio/)are still proud. There was a\* real\* problem with “secessionism” in the 19th century–but not over language. I remember a school trip to the [_Treuer de Union_ monument](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treue_der_Union_Monument)in Comfort, built in 1866 for victims of a Confederate massacre. Here in modern Houston, ballots come in four languages: English, Spanish, Chinese & Vietnamese. Naturalized citizens are required to learn English unless they’re very old, but might be more comfortable deciphering some of the more opaque “Propositions” & Amendments to our much-Amended state Constitution in their mother tongue. The language can be pretty opaque. (Those languages & more appear on Metro transit materials.) The HISD offers several multilingual programs so that refugees & migrants can be educated _as_ they learn English. (Learning English remains the major route to success here, given the number of adults paying for ESL classes.) Also, the highly competitive Magnet Schools include Language Immersion & International Specialty curricula to teach young Houstonians to function in a global economy. Of course, some Texans remain fearful & xenophobic. But time is on our side. English is not going away but it has never been “the only language” here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/50 "2015-06-12T16:06:22Z")
I just love the underlying argument in some of these posts. "If diversity is so great, why do people complain about European colonialism? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/51 "2015-06-12T16:13:37Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > So according to some sketchy website you found, 98.5% of Japan is Japanese. Did you even think about what you copied before you pasted it? You could probably replace the country and nationality terms with the American equivalents and it would make about the same sense, to wit: > > America is 98.5% American. He is referring to ethnically Japanese. Are you being difficult? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/52 "2015-06-12T16:18:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > He is referring to ethnically Japanese. Are you being difficult? No–the [Japanese Census](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Ethnic_groups) is being difficult. It doesn’t ask people their ethnicity, it asks them their nationality. A bit of Googling is failing to turn up any stats on ethnicity within Japan that aren’t identical to stats on nationality. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/53 "2015-06-12T16:23:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where you run into problems is if certain ethnicities are marginalized in a given country. But if you don’t have those ethnicities to begin with, not biggie. Just look at Japan. It’s had to view that country as being unsuccessful because of a lack of diversity. 25 years ago I went to tons of meetings about the Japanese eating our lunch. Japan more or less taking over was a common sf trope (like in Blade Runner.) Not so much now. Maybe if they were more diverse, and could adapt better, they’d be in a better position today. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/54 "2015-06-12T16:27:00Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Well, when the “white man” goes into third-world countries and helps build up their economies it is frequently described as “first-world imperialism” (I.E. all the meddling in South American and Asian countries). > > So it would seem many on the left do think that diversity is only good for the first-world, wealthy nations. All the rest are only harmed by our intrusive “meddling.” I lived in the Congo about a year after independence. By “building up the economy” do you mean grabbing its mineral wealth. The Belgians finally let the Congolese into the local and quite good university just before they left, so the graduating class more or less became ministers being the only educated Congolese. Admittedly the Belgians were one of the worst of the lot, but colonialism hardly counts as diversity. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/55 "2015-06-12T16:44:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Define “language of prominence”. Because despite English being the first language there also used to be a helluva lot of [German speakers in America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States) (the Muhlenberg legend notwithstanding), much as now there are a lot of Spanish speakers. I mean in the sense that English was never challenged in any meaningful way as the main language of American society and government. There were millions of German-speakers, but they were expected to learn English and assimilate into American society. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Your “just common sense” is someone else’s “cultural genocide.” This is the same argument that was used to aggressively (and sometimes successfully) exterminate indigenous minority languages and their cultures throughout the world. That would imply that people are being forced to stop speaking a particular language, which is not what I’m advocating. What I am advocating is that everyone be required to learn a particular language. > [@](#): > > When you don’t provide schooling in a language, you are making a powerful statement about the relevance of and opportunities for speakers of that language. There’s no reason someone couldn’t get a high school and college degree by means of Spanish—people do it all the time in many countries. Or through Navajo, or anything else. It’s a question of whether people value it enough to devote the resources to it. What is that even supposed to mean? Does the United States have to provide schooling in every language spoken in the country? It is precisely to advance the opportunities of non-English speakers in American society that I’m advocating for English-language education. > [@](#): > > What is common sense is bilingualism. You learn your ethnic language, and a national language, and there need be no conflict between the two. A lot of English speakers seem to think that people can’t really be bilingual, or are threatened by hearing something they personally can’t understand. If I had a 100% Navajo-medium education, and lived in an area with Navajo roadsigns, that doesn’t mean I can’t communicate with someone from New York. We’d use English for that. I’m not opposed to bilingualism considering I’m bilingual myself. People shouldn’t forget their ethnic language but instead they should be required to learn English, I hope you can see the difference between the two. People can learn their ethnic languages in either afterschool/weekend schools dedicated for that purpose or even in public schools in particular classes, but the primary language of instruction in the latter case ought to be English. > [@](#): > > My family, like so many others, switched to English in the 20th century. I have only ever picked up a little of my heritage language, which isn’t taught anywhere, and which I can never learn. Even if I did, I can’t share it with most of my living family. That’s one thing for me; you emigrate, you lose culture. It’s quite another for the speakers of indigenous languages and the Spanish speakers in the Southwest and the French speakers in Louisiana, who were already in place when English rolled in. Only the first suffered any significant persecution to forcibly assimilate, the latter two were simply demographically overwhelmed by Anglophone settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/56 "2015-06-12T16:49:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Linguistic imperialism would be if we were forcing a language upon another country. Mandating a single language within one’s own country is just common sense. Obviously its impossible to enforce what language is spoken at home but on the other hand a single language should be instructed in all schools and be the language of government/street signs etc. When you say “a single language should be instructed in all schools,” are you saying that we should make English fluency a high priority for all students in our schools, or are you saying that we should not conduct instruction (except for foreign language instruction) in languages other than English? The first is something that isn’t controversial except among the tiniest minority of folks. The second is scientifically proven to be poor pedagogy. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/57 "2015-06-12T16:57:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > 25 years ago I went to tons of meetings about the Japanese eating our lunch. Japan more or less taking over was a common sf trope Japan has a population less than half that of the USA. There’s only so much a nation like that can do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/58 "2015-06-12T17:00:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Japan has a population less than half that of the USA. There’s only so much a nation like that can do. Tell that to 18th and 19th century England. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/59 "2015-06-12T17:11:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When you say “a single language should be instructed in all schools,” are you saying that we should make English fluency a high priority for all students in our schools, or are you saying that we should not conduct instruction (except for foreign language instruction) in languages other than English? > > The first is something that isn’t controversial except among the tiniest minority of folks. The second is scientifically proven to be poor pedagogy. Something between the two, but generally towards the latter-English instruction for non-native speakers should be immersive and not be extended. The evidence suggests such a method does work in many cases: [http://www.onenation.org/opinion/i-believed-that-bilingual-education-was-best-until-the-kids-proved-me-wrong/](http://www.onenation.org/opinion/i-believed-that-bilingual-education-was-best-until-the-kids-proved-me-wrong/) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2015, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310/60 "2015-06-12T17:24:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Define “language of prominence”. Because despite English being the first language there also used to be a helluva lot of [German speakers in America](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States) (the Muhlenberg legend notwithstanding), much as now there are a lot of Spanish speakers. “Now?” There have been Spanish speakers in my part of America longer than there’s been an America. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-diversity-good-for-all-nations-or-only-white-nations/722310.md?page=4)