# Is Donald Trump a Putin patsy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 25, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875 "2016-07-25T19:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/281 "2016-07-28T00:05:07Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > PS to add, or it would have been relevant to ask if Russian entities are joint investors with TTO in any assets inside or outside Russia. But the question asked was not investments ‘in your business’. It was any ‘oligarchs who have investments in the Trump Organization.’ Trump’s answer to that too narrow question was highly likely correct. Uh, ok. Sure. But whether his specific statement in the Slate article is a lie really is beside the point. He clearly has long and fairly current record of wheeling and dealing with rich Russians. Add that to his blasé attitude towards NATO and Crimea, seems to sum up to a “soft on Russia” stance. A fairly suspicious one at that. I think it’s possible that if all these are packaged together well it could score a political hit. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/282 "2016-07-28T00:10:55Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > …That is not the same as saying he doesn’t have plenty of banks to borrow from… The guys who think different have cites. Just sayin’, is all. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/283 "2016-07-28T00:12:14Z")
Reuters is [Tweeting](https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/758453324588908544) that Wikileaks is releasing hacked audio recordings of DNC voicemails. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/284 "2016-07-28T00:17:02Z")
Assuming that they are nothing more than the spoken version of the transcripts, why would anyone care? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/285 "2016-07-28T01:02:18Z")
It keeps Wikileaks thinking it’s relevant? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/286 "2016-07-28T01:05:29Z")
I keep misreading the thread title as “Is Trump a Putin pasty?.” ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/287 "2016-07-28T01:06:58Z")
I wonder if an anti-Trump (not necessarily Clinton supporting) ad could somehow get through to his base: “Donald Trump is a Communist spy.” Yeah, it’s a lie, but it’s the kind that his demo might swallow. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/288 "2016-07-28T01:12:11Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > I wonder if an anti-Trump (not necessarily Clinton supporting) ad could somehow get through to his base: “Donald Trump is a Communist spy.” > > Yeah, it’s a lie, but it’s the kind that his demo might swallow. 🙂 Trump’s supporters would hear that as, “Hillary says Donald Trump is a Communist spy–another one of her LIES!!” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/289 "2016-07-28T02:10:22Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > 1.) I do believe Romney said Russia was the US’ top geopolitical foe, and liberals mocked him for “thinking is still the 80s” or that “the Cold War was still ongoing” (remember that Russian reset?). But now, all of a sudden, you guys are worried about Russia (and deflect from Hillary). It’s hilarious how you guys have such short term memories. I should go bump that 2012 debate thread if it still exists. Go ahead. I dare you. Post a link to the thread you’re claiming exists. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/290 "2016-07-28T02:36:45Z")
I’d be equally upset if Trump was inviting Venezuela to conduct espionage on the United States so I don’t really see where Russia’s geopolitical US threat ranking is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/291 "2016-07-28T02:39:14Z")
If Upper Volta or Gabon cooked up a scheme to influence our elections I might even think it kinda cute. Putin, however, rises at night to feed on the blood of the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/292 "2016-07-28T02:48:21Z")
Trump’s claiming he doesn’t know anything about Putin. Yeah, that’s a quality you want in a president. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/293 "2016-07-28T02:50:14Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The guys who think different have cites. Just sayin’, is all. I read the cited WSJ article in print when it came out. It didn’t say anything about a lack of conventional funding sources for TTO. It gave examples of big banks which no longer deal with the organization, ie no longer deal with Trump, because of past bad experiences. If you provide some different cite that says TTO has trouble borrowing from conventional sources (like _other_ banks), please provide it. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/294 "2016-07-28T02:50:32Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > Trump’s supporters would hear that as, “Hillary says Donald Trump is a Communist spy–another one of her LIES!!” Accusations are more powerful than explanations or denials. “Trump is a Russian spy” would absolutely work. Emotion beats logic and truth. It’s also libel. So far. You have to figure out how to get it into the public space without Trump suing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/295 "2016-07-28T02:59:50Z")
Don’t have to _say_ it, he will _deny_ it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/296 "2016-07-28T03:38:06Z")
I understand that the Russian mob loves paying pennies on the dollar. PENCE 2017! ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/297 "2016-07-28T04:23:12Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I read the cited WSJ article in print when it came out. It didn’t say anything about a lack of conventional funding sources for TTO. It gave examples of big banks which no longer deal with the organization, ie no longer deal with Trump, because of past bad experiences. If you provide some different cite that says TTO has trouble borrowing from conventional sources (like _other_ banks), please provide it. Dude, that WJS article itself says that Trump has trouble borrowing money from conventional sources. The very first words of the whole article are “ **While many big banks have shunned him** , …” I mean, that’s kind of \* little\* hint that Donald Trump has trouble finding conventional funding. The article goes to describe how he was still able to do bank with Deutsche Bank, but then he walked out on a loan and abandoned a project that they’d funded for him. He ended suing Deutsche Bank’s business branch, which will no longer work with him - although Deutsche’s personal bank that offers personal funding will still work with him. It was in the course of that lawsuit with Deutsche bank that the details about his Russian and Kazakhstan money came out. > [@Corry\_El](#): > > I don’t disagree with the last statement, minus the psychoanalysis, Trump lies a lot. > Also I understand that people in a campaign or caught up in it have to flog the issue of the day. I don’t expect Democratic operatives to come out near the end of the day and say ‘OK, there’s really not that much here’. I get that. > > But, I don’t think there’s much there in terms of proving Trump lied significantly in what he said as related by the Slate article. Nor was he evasive particularly. I’m not ruling out that somebody will prove he lied to a degree that will change the opinion of people who don’t already think he’s a ‘pathological liar’, but the info in the WaPo and NYT articles doesn’t IMO. Ok - You seem confused. The only Slate article that’s been posted today is this one, which is a conversation between Jacob Weisberg and John McLaughlin about the process in which Presidential Candidates begin receiving security briefings. It was recorded last May. I didn’t post this Slate article and I’m not talking about it. It was posted by Sherrod in post [rul=[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19511016&postcount=269](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19511016&postcount=269)]296 > [@Cory El](#): > > On TTO’s funding, the WSJ article noted that some major banks don’t want to deal with him. That is not the same as saying he doesn’t have plenty of banks to borrow from, which he does, there are lots of banks. The likelihood he is _borrowing_ from Russian oligarchs is near zero, people like that are not seeking low returns like you get from lending money to other big companies. That’s just like your opinion man. Compared to the lawsuit that documented actual Russian and Kazakstan money in the Trump Soho project, and also the evidence that Trump worked with shady Russian business people. Here let me just quote that bit again for you, form the NYT article: > [@NYT article documenting Trump lying about his Russian connections](#): > > Mr. Sater left Bayrock after the news of his criminal background was reported. **But even after that, his association with Mr. Trump did not end. The Trump Organization later gave him a business card identifying him as a “senior advisor” to Mr. Trump, as well an office.** Mr. Garten, the general counsel for the organization, said that Mr. Sater was never an employee, but that he had worked independently to steer potential deals to Mr. Trump. The arrangement lasted about six months, Mr. Garten said. Mr. Sater declined to comment on his dealings with Mr. Trump or with Bayrock. > > By the time Mr. Trump sat for a deposition in a lawsuit in November 2013, it was clear he no longer saw the benefit of knowing the Bayrock executives with whom he had once completed big deals. He said he barely knew Mr. Arif: “I mean, I’ve seen him a couple of times; I have met him.” > > **As for Mr. Sater, “if he were sitting in the room right now,” Mr. Trump said, “I really wouldn’t know what he looked like.”** Sater, as the NYT article explains, was a criminal who’d been jailed for stabbing a guy. He also, and I quote - "Mr. Sater was implicated in a huge stock manipulation scheme involving Mafia figures and Russian criminals — and that he became a confidential F.B.I. informant. Yeah. Donald Trump, claiming he doesn’t know Felix Sater, even though Sater had been employed as Mr. Trump’s “Senior Advisor” and even though Sater was present at the big public opening day of the Trump Soho project. See - this is why calling him a liar isn’t just the opinion of a few democrats. He lies on easily provable stuff, like, does he know Felix Sater, the guy who worked with him, arranged banking deals for him (with Putin’s favorite bank!), appeared in public with him, had an office in his building and the job title of Senior Advisor. This is why Trump deserves a big ole raspberry for claiming that he doesn’t even know who Putin is, after years of bragging that he and Putin were tight. > [@Cory El](#): > > And what Trump was clearly saying, in ordinary business language, is that he is _sole_ owner of TTO, IOW there are no other equity investors, which is also highly likely to be true. This is just by way of information. That was a silly question basically. The fact that TTO is a solely owned entity and doesn’t borrow from foreign/private entities is pretty much a no brainer. The right question would instead have been what (or whether) TTO owns or partly owns assets in Russia, and if so jointly with whom. Trump seemed pretty clearly to say no, but wasn’t 100% directly asked that. The most specific question was the wrong one, by a political reporter who doesn’t know how to ask the right question about such a topic, a common problem. Oh, bullshit. Trump wasn’t asked, “are you the sole owner of TTO?” It was a simple exchange with a simple yes or no answer. Here, I’ll quote again, from the original - > [@TPM](#): > > “You say that you have no business in Russia. Can you say unequivocally that Russia has no business with you?” the reporter asked. > > “No, I have nothing to do with Russia,” Trump said, throwing his arms up. > > \ > > Trump then fielded a question about whether there are any “oligarchs who have investments in the Trump Organization.” > > “Of course not, I own the Trump Organization,” Trump responded. “Zero. Zero.” There you go. Perfectly simple yes or no questions and both times, Trump refused to give a straight answer. The first part is proven to be a lie by all the many times Trump and his people have talked about their Russian connections. The second one is just evasive. It’s right there in simple English, Cory. He wasn’t asked, “do any oligarchs own Trump Organization”? He was asked, "have any oligarch invested in Trump Organization? That’s not the same thing. Answering the first question when he was asked the second question is being evasive. > [@Cory El](#): > > And the other articles referred to specify cases where TTO tried to make investment there some years in the past. Trump said, per the Slate article, ‘yeah we tried to’, but didn’t. If Trump was basically lying on that, it’s yet to be demonstrated to a level which would move the needle with people who aren’t going to go semi-ape shit, with due respect, at any suggestion Trump isn’t the devil incarnate. But about equal numbers of voters now favor Trump to opposing him when Clinton is the alternative. I don’t see the Russian dealings thing or Trump’s statements about it as very decisive in changing that if the media doesn’t come up with a _lot_ more. And the ‘treason’ thing by Democrats wrt Trump’s dumb comment about Russian hacking risks overplaying that and looking desperate, IMO. It’s already been demonstrated that Trump’s connections with Russia far exceed his little attempt to pretend that he has nothing to do with it. As this Washington Post article puts it, titled [\*\*Inside Trump’s financial ties to Russia and his unusual flattery of Vladimir Putin \*\*](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-trumps-financial-ties-to-russia-and-his-unusual-flattery-of-vladimir-putin/2016/06/17/dbdcaac8-31a6-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html) > [@Wapo article](#): > > This account of Trump’s 30-year history of business with Russia — and that of his advisers — is based on interviews as well as a review of deposition transcripts and other court records in which Trump and his associates have discussed their overseas work. Trump declined to be interviewed for this article, as did top campaign aides and most members of his foreign policy team. The Kremlin also declined to comment about Trump’s visit to Moscow. > > The coming together of Trump’s business and political agendas was evident during his 2013 Moscow trip, in which he was seeking deals at the same time he was starting to ponder a presidential run. Honestly, **Cory El** , Trump’s connections to Russia are so widely reported and commented on, attempting to pretend they don’t exist just ruins your credibility. Trump’s business links to Russia go back decades. At this point, I believe the onus is on Trump to explain why, after all his decades on working with Russian investors, we should believe that he’s completely cut ties for them all. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/298 "2016-07-28T04:41:08Z")
On a purely technical level, if Russia WERE able to get Hillary’s 30,000 emails as well upon request, that would be pretty alarming. If they can do this or that as they please, hacking-wise, what else can they hack or have hacked at will? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/299 "2016-07-28T04:55:00Z")
> [@Crybaby\_Boobie](#): > > Just remember everyone. This person gets access to national security briefings starting Friday. Maybe he’ll invite the Russians to read those too! I wonder if they won’t/shouldn’t try some version of the [“canary trap”/“barium meal test”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_trap#Barium_meal_test) with those briefings. As the Senator from Minnesota would say, I’m kind of kidding on the square on that one. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/300 "2016-07-28T05:01:03Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I wonder if they won’t/shouldn’t try some version of the [“canary trap”/“barium meal test”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_trap#Barium_meal_test) with those briefings. > > As the Senator from Minnesota would say, I’m kind of kidding on the square on that one. I was thinking the same thing. Personalize it for Trump. Something he would be tempted to blurt out in public. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=16)