# Is Donald Trump a Putin patsy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 25, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875 "2016-07-25T19:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/361 "2016-08-02T18:31:56Z")
Well, OK. What are his credentials as an expert on Trump? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/362 "2016-08-02T18:50:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, OK. What are his credentials as an expert on Trump? He isn’t putting himself forth as an expert on Trump. > [@](#): > > Donald Trump, who says something that suggests he wants to end the new Cold War, cooperate with Russia in various places. > \ > Trump speaks eliptically. You’ve got to piece together what he says. But he seems to want a new American policy toward Russia. He is just bouncing off his impression of Trump’s statements. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/363 "2016-08-02T18:53:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s not exactly what the “professor emeritus of Russian studies at NYU and Princeton” said. He’s saying there should be a debate on the NATO mission: > Now for all I know he’s an expert on Russian folk dancing but putting the scare quotes around it is pretty lame when he is a professor of Russian studies and you are ‘some random nobody on the internet’. Want quotes? Here you go. All from that self-same article: [QUOTE=Stephen F. Cohen] Trump speaks eliptically [sic]. You’ve got to piece together what he says. But he seems to want a new American policy toward Russia. And considering the danger, I think we as American citizens, deserve that debate, and not what we are given in the media today, including on the front page of the “New York Times.” [/QUOTE] [sic] mine. So what Trump said isn’t really what he said, it’s a new ‘peace for our time’ message. [QUOTE=Stephen F. Cohen] Vladimir Putin wants to end the 'New Cold War – and so do I. [/QUOTE] Except that Putin wants Russian hegemony, and presumably this guy doesn’t. [QUOTE=Stephen F. Cohen] I end by saying, that this reckless branding of Trump as a Russian agent, most of it is coming from the Clinton campaign and they really need to stop. [/QUOTE] Right, because it was the Clinton camp that ‘jokingly’ called for the Russians to commit espionage on us. Yeah, thanks, I won’t take this guy as an expert on anything. But then I’m just some random person on the internet, I couldn’t possibly know what I’m talking about or comprehend what I read. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/364 "2016-08-02T19:05:57Z")
Looking at his wiki, the guy has published nine books on Russian politics/USA-Soviet relations as well as contributing to many articles and debates on the subject. He has a PhD in government and Russian studies from Columbia. He was a Princeton professor in Russian studies for 30 years. For the last 18 years he’s been teaching the same at New York University. But on the other hand, he disagrees with Johnny Ace so I am at a loss as to who is the expert here. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/365 "2016-08-02T19:08:21Z")
> [@](#): > > Trump speaks eliptically. You’ve got to piece together what he says. But he seems to want a new American policy toward Russia. Translation: “Trumps words don’t make an iota of sense. So I’ll just interpret them to mean whatever I choose.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/366 "2016-08-02T19:18:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Translation: “Trumps words don’t make an iota of sense. So I’ll just interpret them to mean whatever I choose.” The man is obviously dove-ish on the Russia question and does not like the idea of a new Cold War. He was given the opportunity to speak to that with Trump’s comments as a pretext. He said a bunch of times in the interview that he’s not associated with Trump and is not defending him. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/367 "2016-08-02T22:26:18Z")
I don’t know if you heard the news **Will** , but Putin is _already_ threatening the independence of a Baltic state. If he doesn’t want to threaten the independence of a Baltic state, he should probably get his troops out of East Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/368 "2016-08-02T22:38:53Z")
Hey - speaking of Russian aggression toward Ukraine, it turns out that Trumps “Foreign Policy Advisor” was in Moscow, giving speeches criticizing American foreign policy. > **[Trump Foreign Policy Adviser Traveled To Russia Prior To Changes In GOP Platform](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/carter-page-trump-russia_n_57a0f329e4b0693164c2fb41?section=)** > > Carter Page expressed a wish for a closer relationship between Washington and Moscow. > [@Carter Page](#): > > “Washington and other Western capitals have impeded potential progress through their often hypocritical focus on ideas such as democratization, inequality, corruption, and regime change,” Page said last month during a commencement speech at a Moscow economics graduate school. > > Page also suggested the United States should ease economic sanctions imposed on Russia following its 2014 incursion into Ukraine and Crimea, which was condemned in an overwhelming vote in the United Nations. In exchange for sanctions relief, Page said, American companies might be invited to partner with Russian firms to exploit Russia’s oil and gas fields. There’s video of the speech at that link above. Shortly after that speech, Trump’s people convinced the GOP to soften their condemnation of Russia’s Ukraine activities in the GOP Party Platform. It was the one and only change that Trump wanted in the platform. > [@the HuffPo article linked above](#): > > The week after Page’s speeches, Trump operatives persuaded Republican Party convention delegates to drop from the party’s platform a call to send arms to Ukraine to help defend the country following Russia’s 2014 occupation and subsequent annexation of the Crimean peninsula. > > Trump and his top campaign aide, Paul Manafort, both denied that they were behind the change. But delegates at the Platform Committee meetings and officials with the Republican National Committee said that not only was the Trump campaign behind the new language, but that it was, in fact, the only major revision the campaign demanded. This is the only thing that Trump has any firm ideas. He wants to abandon our decade old relationships and allies and cozy up to Russia in hopes of getting US access to Russian energy money. Of course, Carter Page’s ties to Gazprom, Russia’s energy company are well noted and long standing. Page himself, claims that he stands with Russian economic students at the Moscow New Economic School. [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/2016-trump-putin-russia-gop-platform-214074](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/2016-trump-putin-russia-gop-platform-214074) > [@Carter Page](#): > > When a Russian student asked Page whether he really believed that American society was liberal and democratic, Trump’s adviser grinned and delivered a line that might have come from Vladimir Putin himself. “I surround the word ‘liberal’ with quotes,” he said. ”I tend to agree with you that it’s not always as liberal as it may seem,” he said. “I’m with you.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/369 "2016-08-02T22:51:13Z")
In his defense, maybe Page was thinking about American incarceration rates, police profiling, growing income disparity, voter ID rules and campaign finance laws. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/370 "2016-08-02T23:04:24Z")
Maybe. I’ll take Page’s own words on the topics under discussion… seems to be a better source, right? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/371 "2016-08-02T23:04:33Z")
Maybe. There are certainly plenty of things to criticize about America and also, liberal means something specific in an economic contrast. But it’s one thing to say, “America struggles to balance its liberal and conservative impulses, and I think they’ve strayed too far from their liberal ideals.” and another thing to say, “I’m with you Russians who think America is just being hypocritical about their “liberal” democracy”. When the speaker is an advisor to a Republican presidential candidate, as is the case with Carter Page and Donald Trump - it’s reasonable to question the sort of advice that Page is giving Donald. It’s also reasonable to ask Donald if he agrees that America’s commitment to liberal democracy is just a hypocritical club to beat up our rivals. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/372 "2016-08-02T23:06:14Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > In his defense, maybe Page was thinking about American incarceration rates, police profiling, growing income disparity, voter ID rules and campaign finance laws. American imperfections do not logically necessitate concessions to Russian geopolitical ambitions. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/373 "2016-08-02T23:15:10Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Maybe. I’ll take Page’s own words on the topics under discussion… seems to be a better source, right? Which words are you talking about? Everything quoted above from Page is generic “we’re not all peaches and cream back home”. The hypocrisy and lack of liberty/democracy could have easily been hinted at by any lefty. So sure, it’s fair political game to try and drag out what he actually meant. However, this doesn’t seem a very damning story to neutral eyes. At least, not since Trump himself has already been public about being soft on the Crimea thing already. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/374 "2016-08-02T23:18:04Z")
Page listed the topics on which he spoke. I don’t know why you claim he was speaking on different topics. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/375 "2016-08-02T23:28:02Z")
> [@](#): > > …and delivered a line that might have come from Vladimir Putin himself. “I surround the word ‘liberal’ with quotes,” he said. ”I tend to agree with you that it’s not always as liberal as it may seem,” he said. “I’m with you.” … At least we got some stuff to be hypocritical _about!_ Russia doesn’t even have that! And not even half of _our_ people are drunk. We have ideals we have yet to fully realize, no doubt, but when is a virtue ever easy? Well, OK, chastity is easy for some people, but still, you see what I mean? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/376 "2016-08-02T23:29:57Z")
I don’t claim that. There are a bunch of different ways a lefty, righty or centrist could find hypocrisy in America’s outward international stance on social liberty, business liberty or democracy. I just dont see a “i hate america” smoking gun here. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/377 "2016-08-03T00:33:03Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Putin is Russia. You can’t separate the two. That you pretend it isn’t is indicative of your political bent. > > And sure, maybe destroying the EU and disbanding NATO may also be good for Russia, but I wouldn’t cozy up to Russia at the expense of our allies. Russia’s not worth the EU, I’d rather ally myself with the likes of France and England than Russia; Trump would do the opposite, at the great cost to the US No. Russian citizens are not the same as Putin. Only a hardcore ideology could lead a blurring of the two. The second paragraph reeks of ignorance. Russia is already much friendlier with the EU, especially Germany. The US government is the driving force behind their demonization and isolation. The EU had to be dragged into supporting the sanctions. > [@Merneith](#): > > I don’t know if you heard the news **Will** , but Putin is _already_ threatening the independence of a Baltic state. If he doesn’t want to threaten the independence of a Baltic state, he should probably get his troops out of East Ukraine. Stephen Cohen disagrees with **Merneith**. Who do you have on your side beside John McCain, Victoria Nuland, and a whole lot of neo-Nazi would-be ethnic cleansers. > [@Merneith](#): > > Hey - speaking of Russian aggression toward Ukraine, it turns out that Trumps “Foreign Policy Advisor” was in Moscow, giving speeches criticizing American foreign policy. > > [Trump Foreign Policy Adviser Traveled To Russia Prior To Changes In GOP Platform | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/carter-page-trump-russia_us_57a0f329e4b0693164c2fb41?section=&) > > There’s video of the speech at that link above. > Shortly after that speech, Trump’s people convinced the GOP to soften their condemnation of Russia’s Ukraine activities in the GOP Party Platform. It was the one and only change that Trump wanted in the platform. > > This is the only thing that Trump has any firm ideas. He wants to abandon our decade old relationships and allies and cozy up to Russia in hopes of getting US access to Russian energy money. > > Of course, Carter Page’s ties to Gazprom, Russia’s energy company are well noted and long standing. Page himself, claims that he stands with Russian economic students at the Moscow New Economic School. > > [http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/2016-trump-putin-russia-gop-platform-214074](http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/2016-trump-putin-russia-gop-platform-214074) What’s that about the Russian and energy? [http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?\_r=0](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us/cash-flowed-to-clinton-foundation-as-russians-pressed-for-control-of-uranium-company.html?_r=0) > [@Sherrerd](#): > > American imperfections do not logically necessitate concessions to Russian geopolitical ambitions. Which ambitions are those? Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/378 "2016-08-03T01:50:59Z")
You seem intent on impressing us with your expertise, but you are unaware of any such thing? If they are all fictitious, are you aware of the fictions? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/379 "2016-08-03T02:24:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Stephen Cohen disagrees with **Merneith**. Who do you have on your side beside John McCain, Victoria Nuland, and a whole lot of neo-Nazi would-be ethnic cleansers. … I have the actual presence of Russian troops in Ukraine and Russia’s annexation of Crimea. I mean, [we were just all laughing at Donald](http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/31/politics/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-crimea-putin/) for saying that Russia wasn’t going to attack Ukraine, only to be reminded that Russia was already currently attacking Ukraine. I don’t know why you think it’s more persuasive when Stephen Cohen comes stating that there’s no evidence that Putin wants to reclaim the historically Soviet territories. It’s like watching Napoleon capture Vienna and then asserting that “there’s no evidence - none whatsover - that the Tyrant of Europe wants to end the independence of the Germanic states.” ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2016, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/380 "2016-08-03T16:09:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No. Russian citizens are not the same as Putin. Only a hardcore ideology could lead a blurring of the two. > > The second paragraph reeks of ignorance. Russia is already much friendlier with the EU, especially Germany. The US government is the driving force behind their demonization and isolation. The EU had to be dragged into supporting the sanctions. Isn’t it amazing what partisanship can do? Russia used to be the evil communist country that threatens world peace. Now its the best because our turd of a GOP nominee says so and conservatives are doing backflips on Jesus’s grave trying to be apologists for them. Just accept a Clinton presidency. It’ll be better than Trump. He’s done more damage to conservatism and the Republican brand than 20 years of Clinton could possibly do. Come over to the good side 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=20)