# Is Donald Trump a Putin patsy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 25, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875 "2016-07-25T19:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/381 "2016-08-04T13:45:47Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > … I have the actual presence of Russian troops in Ukraine and Russia’s annexation of Crimea. > > I mean, [we were just all laughing at Donald](http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/31/politics/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-crimea-putin/) for saying that Russia wasn’t going to attack Ukraine, only to be reminded that Russia was already currently attacking Ukraine. > > I don’t know why you think it’s more persuasive when Stephen Cohen comes stating that there’s no evidence that Putin wants to reclaim the historically Soviet territories. It’s like watching Napoleon capture Vienna and then asserting that “there’s no evidence - none whatsover - that the Tyrant of Europe wants to end the independence of the Germanic states.” I made the claim that Putin would not “go into” the Baltic States. I cited Russia expert Stephen Cohen saying there is no evidence whatsoever that Putin wants to “end the independence” of the Baltic States. You rebut this by saying Putin is in Ukraine and annexed Crimea. All this time I thought we were arguing over Putin’s future intentions. I never considered the fact that you don’t know where the Baltic States are. Ukraine is not a Baltic State. Crimea was a gift from Russia that never actually traded hands in a meaningful way. It’s now Russian as it always will be. Ukraine’s eastern regions are ethnically Russian and under threat from a government that cuddles with neo-Nazis. There was an attempted ethnic cleansing in the Donbass and Putin stepped in. If you want to side with the ethnic cleansers because an imaginary line separates Russia from eastern Ukraine, I would question your ideology. Now it’s your turn to provide evidence ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/382 "2016-08-04T13:49:02Z")
– ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/383 "2016-08-04T13:55:28Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Isn’t it amazing what partisanship can do? Russia used to be the evil communist country that threatens world peace. Now its the best because our turd of a GOP nominee says so and conservatives are doing backflips on Jesus’s grave trying to be apologists for them. > > Just accept a Clinton presidency. It’ll be better than Trump. He’s done more damage to conservatism and the Republican brand than 20 years of Clinton could possibly do. Come over to the good side 😃 I’m not a partisan Republican. I have said several times that I favor a Hillary victory and support Johnson’s campaign. The point being debated is over Russia. Hillary Clinton is terrible on Russia. She instigates war all over, but with Russia she is especially scary, comparing Putin to Hitler. I also never bought into the idea of an evil country, unlike the brain-washed American media consumer. Governments are evil, not countries. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/384 "2016-08-04T14:12:36Z")
A fine distinction, which may elude some of the corpses. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/385 "2016-08-04T14:15:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There was an attempted ethnic cleansing in the Donbass and Putin stepped in. If you want to side with the ethnic cleansers because an imaginary line separates Russia from eastern Ukraine, I would question your ideology. > > Now it’s your turn to provide evidence > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I also never bought into the idea of an evil country, unlike the brain-washed American media consumer. > [@](#): > > An Amnesty International investigation into allegations of execution-style and other deliberate killings by pro-Russian separatists and pro-Kyiv forces has found evidence of isolated incidents attributable to both sides, but not on the scale reported by Russian media and authorities. > \ > There is no doubt that summary killings and atrocities are being committed by both pro-Russian separatists and pro-Kyiv forces in Eastern Ukraine, but is difficult to get an accurate sense of the scale of these abuses. It is likely that many have not yet been exposed and that others have been deliberately misrecorded. It is also clear that some of the more shocking cases that have been reported, particularly by Russian media, have been hugely exaggerated,” said John Dalhuisen, Europe and Central Asia Director at Amnesty International. > **[Eastern Ukraine conflict: Summary killings, misrecorded and misreported](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/10/eastern-ukraine-conflict-summary-killings-misrecorded-and-misreported/)** > > An Amnesty International investigation into allegations of execution-style and other deliberate killings by pro-Russian separatists and pro-Kyiv forces has found evidence of isolated incidents attributable to both sides, but not on the scale reported... ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/386 "2016-08-04T22:48:02Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I made the claim that Putin would not “go into” the Baltic States. I cited Russia expert Stephen Cohen saying there is no evidence whatsoever that Putin wants to “end the independence” of the Baltic States. > > You rebut this by saying Putin is in Ukraine and annexed Crimea. All this time I thought we were arguing over Putin’s future intentions. I never considered the fact that you don’t know where the Baltic States are. Ukraine is not a Baltic State. > > Crimea was a gift from Russia that never actually traded hands in a meaningful way. It’s now Russian as it always will be. Ukraine’s eastern regions are ethnically Russian and under threat from a government that cuddles with neo-Nazis. There was an attempted ethnic cleansing in the Donbass and Putin stepped in. If you want to side with the ethnic cleansers because an imaginary line separates Russia from eastern Ukraine, I would question your ideology. > > Now it’s your turn to provide evidence I know what a Baltic State is. The point, which you and this Cohen dude are trying to obscure, is that all these states are former Soviet territory. It’s irrelevant that some of the former Soviet territories are on the Baltic Sea and some are on the Black Sea. The proof that Vladimir Putin wants to reacquire the former Soviet Republics for Russia is that Putin is currently attacking and reacquiring the former Soviet Republic territory in Ukraine. When arguing that Russia has no ideas of aggression, Stephen Cohen’s opinions do not outweigh the actual aggression of using of Russian troops to conquer independent Ukraine. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/387 "2016-08-05T00:15:04Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > I know what a Baltic State is. The point, which you and this Cohen dude are trying to obscure, is that all these states are former Soviet territory. It’s irrelevant that some of the former Soviet territories are on the Baltic Sea and some are on the Black Sea. > > The proof that Vladimir Putin wants to reacquire the former Soviet Republics for Russia is that Putin is currently attacking and reacquiring the former Soviet Republic territory in Ukraine. > > When arguing that Russia has no ideas of aggression, Stephen Cohen’s opinions do not outweigh the actual aggression of using of Russian troops to conquer independent Ukraine. If it’s irrelevant take that up with the poster who asked me about Latvia and Estonia. I never said anything absurd like “Putin has no ideas of aggression” and neither did Cohen as far as I can tell. I simply said he would not make a move on Latvia and Estonia. I cited an expert who agreed. I have seen nothing from you but speculation based on western hysteria. Are you comfortable siding with the Nazis? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/388 "2016-08-05T16:22:21Z")
It could have been the height of irony if this election put Putin patsy Donald Trump on one side, and Socialist Bernie Sanders on the other. The world’s head would have exploded. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/389 "2016-08-05T16:49:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > There was an attempted ethnic cleansing in the Donbass and Putin stepped in. If you want to side with the ethnic cleansers because an imaginary line separates Russia from eastern Ukraine, I would question your ideology > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > unlike the brain-washed American media consumer. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have seen nothing from you but speculation based on western hysteria. > > Are you comfortable siding with the Nazis? You seem to think being brainwashed by Russian hysteria and media is somehow intellectually or morally superior. Odd. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/390 "2016-08-05T17:41:35Z")
Michael Morell, a 33-year veteran of the CIA and former acting Director of Central Intelligence has [endorsed Clinton](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/opinion/campaign-stops/i-ran-the-cia-now-im-endorsing-hillary-clinton.html?ref=opinion&_r=0) in today’s _New York Times_. He writes: > [@](#): > > President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia was a career intelligence officer, trained to identify vulnerabilities in an individual and to exploit them. That is exactly what he did early in the primaries. Mr. Putin played upon Mr. Trump’s vulnerabilities by complimenting him. He responded just as Mr. Putin had calculated. > > Mr. Putin is a great leader, Mr. Trump says, ignoring that he has killed and jailed journalists and political opponents, has invaded two of his neighbors and is driving his economy to ruin. Mr. Trump has also taken policy positions consistent with Russian, not American, interests — endorsing Russian espionage against the United States, supporting Russia’s annexation of Crimea and giving a green light to a possible Russian invasion of the Baltic States. > > In the intelligence business, we would say that Mr. Putin had recruited Mr. Trump as an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/391 "2016-08-05T17:44:05Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If it’s irrelevant take that up with the poster who asked me about Latvia and Estonia. I never said anything absurd like “Putin has no ideas of aggression” and neither did Cohen as far as I can tell. I simply said he would not make a move on Latvia and Estonia. I cited an expert who agreed. I have seen nothing from you but speculation based on western hysteria. > > Are you comfortable siding with the Nazis? My belief in Vladimir Putin’s aggressive intentions is not shaped by the media but by his own behavior. My evidence that Putin will act aggressively toward the former Soviet republics is his _current_ aggression toward a former Soviet republic. In light of Putin’s current war of aggression towards Ukraine, I see no reason to take Stephen Cohen’s word for it that Putin has no intention of attacking the Baltic states. The Nazi accusations speak for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/392 "2016-08-05T18:14:00Z")
AND THEN … Today (5 Aug) NYT editorial from a former CIA man, Michael J. Morell, stating that Donald is (perhaps unwittingly) working for Vladimir Putin, headlined: [**I Ran the C.I.A. Now I’m Endorsing Hillary Clinton.**](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/opinion/campaign-stops/i-ran-the-cia-now-im-endorsing-hillary-clinton.html?ref=opinion) > [@Michael J. Morell](#): > > The dangers that flow from Mr. Trump’s character are not just risks that would emerge if he became president. It is already damaging our national security. > > President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia was a career intelligence officer, trained to identify vulnerabilities in an individual and to exploit them. That is exactly what he did early in the primaries. Mr. Putin played upon Mr. Trump’s vulnerabilities by complimenting him. He responded just as Mr. Putin had calculated. > > Mr. Putin is a great leader, Mr. Trump says, ignoring that he has killed and jailed journalists and political opponents, has invaded two of his neighbors and is driving his economy to ruin. Mr. Trump has also taken policy positions consistent with Russian, not American, interests — endorsing Russian espionage against the United States, supporting Russia’s annexation of Crimea and giving a green light to a possible Russian invasion of the Baltic States. > > In the intelligence business, we would say that Mr. Putin had recruited Mr. Trump as an unwitting agent of the Russian Federation. Morell also goes on to point out that Trump’s rampant anti-Muslim comments are likely harming America’s efforts to gain critical cooperation among our Muslim communities. Michael Morell has years of experience in the CIA. He was the acting director of the CIA from 2010 to 2013. He was heavily involved with Obama and Clinton during the capture of Osama bin Laden. I know it’s an opinion piece, but it’s an informed opinion. Recruiting assets is part of what intelligence agents like Morell and Putin do. I think it says a lot that an intelligence agent recognizes Trump’s behavior as that of an unwitting recruit by another intelligence agent. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2016, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/393 "2016-08-09T11:32:17Z")
It appears the Putin may now be trying to siphon off Democratic votes by defending Jill Stein. John Aravosis, of Ameriblog, criticized Stein for her behavior on her trip to Moscow. Trolls criticizing the article started showing up, but with a time delay of 7 hours. Ameriblog article on Stein’s trip to Moscow: [http://americablog.com/2016/08/jill-stein-moscow-criticized-us-human-rights-said-nothing-russian-human-rights.html](http://americablog.com/2016/08/jill-stein-moscow-criticized-us-human-rights-said-nothing-russian-human-rights.html) Aravosis’ tweets about the trolls: [https://twitter.com/aravosis/status/762454342125228032](https://twitter.com/aravosis/status/762454342125228032) > [@](#): > > John Aravosis Verified account > ‏@aravosis > It’s taken Stein followers a day to catch up with my story about her yesterday. It’s almost as if the trolls had a seven hour time delay. > Retweets 49 Likes 146 > > Paul McMann ‏@MannAtlanta Aug 7 > @aravosis Those Stein and Sanders trools are rather quite silly! > 0 retweets 2 likes > > John Aravosis ‏@aravosis Aug 7 > @MannAtlanta except many of the Stein ones are clearly Russians. Their language mistakes are obvious. It’s really scary. > 4 retweets 18 likes ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/394 "2016-08-19T14:16:51Z")
Paul Manafort’s continuing connections to pro-Kremilin Ukrainian government forces, via the work of his employee, Robert Gates - [http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/paul-manafort-ukraine-kiev-russia-konstantin-kilimnik-227181](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/paul-manafort-ukraine-kiev-russia-konstantin-kilimnik-227181) AP article about Manafort and Gates’ work, lobbying to bolster pro-Russian sentiment for the pro-Russian Ukrainian forces in American policy - [http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6eed1ef61eb744e1aac584f8ac1f7247/trump-advisers-waged-covert-influence-campaign](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/6eed1ef61eb744e1aac584f8ac1f7247/trump-advisers-waged-covert-influence-campaign) > [@AP article about Manafort's Pro-Russian activities](#): > > A firm run by Donald Trump’s campaign chairman directly orchestrated a covert Washington lobbying operation on behalf of Ukraine’s ruling political party, attempting to sway American public opinion in favor of the country’s pro-Russian government, emails obtained by The Associated Press show. Paul Manafort and his deputy, Rick Gates, never disclosed their work as foreign agents as required under federal law. > > The lobbying included attempts to gain positive press coverage of Ukrainian officials in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and The Associated Press. Another goal: undercutting American public sympathy for the imprisoned rival of Ukraine’s then-president. At the time, European and American leaders were pressuring Ukraine to free her. > > Gates personally directed the work of two prominent Washington lobbying firms in the matter, the emails show. He worked for Manafort’s political consulting firm at the time. > > Manafort and Gates’ activities carry outsized importance, since they have steered Trump’s campaign since April. The pair also played a formative role building out Trump’s campaign operation after pushing out an early rival. Trump shook up his campaign’s organization again this week, but Manafort and Gates retain their titles and much of their influence. The new disclosures about their work come as Trump faces criticism for his friendly overtures to Russian President Vladimir Putin. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/395 "2016-08-19T14:19:06Z")
Oooops - Manafort just resigned. [http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/291957-manafort-resigns-from-trump-campaign-report](http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/291957-manafort-resigns-from-trump-campaign-report) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/396 "2016-08-19T14:21:23Z")
You mean Rick Gates, not Robert Gates (former CIA head and SecDef), right? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/397 "2016-08-19T14:25:34Z")
I don’t think his resignation makes this any less a story. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/398 "2016-08-19T15:12:57Z")
I wonder who Trump’s Russian handler is now? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/399 "2016-08-19T15:55:21Z")
If I was a betting man, I would put 3:1 odds that sometime in the next few days, Paul Manafort will be looking at the top of clouds that are over the Atlantic Ocean, on his way to somewhere, anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2016, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/400 "2016-08-19T16:04:48Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You mean Rick Gates, not Robert Gates (former CIA head and SecDef), right? Lol - yes. Thanks for the correction. > [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I wonder who Trump’s Russian handler is now? Carter Page, maybe. He’s the guy giving speeches in Moscow about how America’s commitment to democracy is just a hypocritical club for bashing their rivals. But I guess if the former-KGB man is involved, it’s probably someone we haven’t met. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=21)