# Is Donald Trump a Putin patsy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 25, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875 "2016-07-25T19:00:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/141 "2016-07-26T20:33:03Z")
> [@bobruisk](#): > > By threatening to leave NATO Mr. Trump, quite obviously, wants to push the countries in question to meet their obligation on defense spending, thereby strengthening the alliance. The [North Atlantic Treaty](http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm) does call for its member states to “separately and jointly, by means of continuous and effective self-help and mutual aid…maintain and develop their individual and collective capacity to resist armed attack.” But the “2% of GDP” is only an interpretation that NATO has settled on of that part of the treaty (Article 3), that NATO members ought to spend that much of their GDP on defense. Somehow, [Trump has morphed that into](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-nato-we-have-to-walk) “I want them to pay…They don’t pay us what they should be paying!” The [United States (Democrats and Republicans alike) has advocated that our allies spend more on their own military forces](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/07/21/donald-trump-cast-doubt-on-the-baltics-involvement-in-nato-heres-what-they-actually-do/), for the benefit of us _and_ them. (Incidentally, of the countries that Trump was [specifically asked about in the _New York Times_ interview](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/us/politics/donald-trump-foreign-policy-interview.html), Estonia, the most front-line of the front-line states, is already meeting its obligations, spending 2.2% of its GDP on defense.) But they don’t pay _ **us** _ anything! It’s a mutual defense treaty, not an imperialist protection racket. And the bottom line–the absolute bedrock of U.S. foreign policy for almost 70 years, the brightest and clearest “red line” of them all–is that > [@the United States of America](#): > > …an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. It’s shocking for a major party Presidential nominee to call that into question. It’s either horrifying ignorant; or quite possibly indicative of [actual disloyalty on Trump’s part](http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/cover_story/2016/07/vladimir_putin_has_a_plan_for_destroying_the_west_and_it_looks_a_lot_like.html), and for the most base and self-serving of motives. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/142 "2016-07-26T20:33:36Z")
This is a thread about Donald Trump and his relationship with Vladimir Putin and Russia. So today, Newsweek tried asking Donald Trump about that relationship. Rick Wilson, Republican consultant, had suggested asking Donald Trump the following question: [“Do you, or any of your business units have outstanding loans with Russian banks or individuals? If so, how much?”](https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/757603101134163968) Seems like a pretty basic question for a guy who refuses to give us any details on his financials. So [Newsweek asked Trump surrogate](http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-russia-putin-dnc-hack-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-emails-483807), Hope Hicks, and she straight up lied about it. Hicks replied, “Mr. Trump does not have any business dealings in/with Russia.” Which is clearly false and also doesn’t answer the question. Lying is a Trump reflex so no surprise there but they’ve talked about their business interests in Russia previously. Like adaher said, Trump’s ties to Russia are public knowledge. I hope more people continue to press Donald Trump for evidence to back up his lies. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/143 "2016-07-26T20:35:53Z")
> [@bobruisk](#): > > I would have her not initiate a reset policy with someone who just invaded and dismembered our ally. Bob Please allow the thread to be about Trump and Putin. There’ll be plenty of places to voice your opinion of Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/144 "2016-07-26T20:37:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Let me ask a tangential question: Why has the Democratic Party become so anti-Russia of late - even before the 2014 Crimea crisis? Ditto this. That’s a topic for another thread. Feel free to start it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/145 "2016-07-26T20:46:27Z")
There’s a lot to unpack, here. First off, since we converted the Communists to our way of thinking, they have shown a rather fuzzy notion about the line between entrepreneurship and thuggery. And successful criminals, like for instance, drug cartels, face the challenge of where to put all that damn money! Then you got Trump’s somewhat shaky record as regards credit extended to him, as well as a casual attitude towards investors. What a truly ruthless Hillary should do is get somebody to fake up a scurrilous “tax return” for Il Douche and “leak” it. Then, when he screams, just bat our big brown eyes and say “Well, OK, then, give us the real one that will shut them up!” Of course, that would be wrong! And I stand ready to renounce, denounce and condemn such underhanded tactics with a firm “Tsk! Tsk!”. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/146 "2016-07-26T20:49:00Z")
I don’t know about fake returns, but Trump _should not be allowed one minute more of free TV_ coverage until he ponies up the real ones. It’s a shameful lapse of professionalism on the part of journalists that he’s gotten away with non-disclosure for so long. If dude is heavily in hock to Russian banks, voters have a right to know. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/147 "2016-07-26T20:51:09Z")
I respect your high-minded standards, which I can freely admire without the slightest intention of emulating. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/148 "2016-07-26T20:57:27Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Bob > > Please allow the thread to be about Trump and Putin. There’ll be plenty of places to voice your opinion of Hillary. He’s pretty much filled them up. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/149 "2016-07-26T21:23:35Z")
[From Defense News:](http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense-news/2016/07/21/world-reacts-trumps-apparent-conditional-support-nato-allies/87386836/) > [@](#): > > Retired Army Gen. Wesley Clark, a former NATO supreme allied commander sent out a statement saying Trump misunderstands NATO and that **his remarks undercut NATO’s deterrent in Europe.** > > “So, when Mr. Trump says he’ll only consider action, he is joining a long list of failed statesmen and leaders from decades ago, whose ‎hesitancy, wavering and lack of resolve — for whatever reason — in the face of adversity paved the path to disastrous war,” Clark said. Bolding mine. I agree. Even as A CANDIDATE, Trump has damaged international relations for the United States. Can anyone seriously imagine the consequences if Obama had said such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/150 "2016-07-26T21:57:27Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > So today, Newsweek tried asking Donald Trump about that relationship. Rick Wilson, Republican consultant, had suggested asking Donald Trump the following question: > > [“Do you, or any of your business units have outstanding loans with Russian banks or individuals? If so, how much?”](https://twitter.com/TheRickWilson/status/757603101134163968) > Seems like a pretty basic question for a guy who refuses to give us any details on his financials. So [Newsweek asked Trump surrogate](http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-russia-putin-dnc-hack-bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-emails-483807), Hope Hicks, and she straight up lied about it. Hicks replied, > > “Mr. Trump does not have any business dealings in/with Russia.” As you mention - this is a complete, utter and outrageous lie. [Trump has lots of business dealings in Russia, and plenty of financial ties.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-trumps-financial-ties-to-russia-and-his-unusual-flattery-of-vladimir-putin/2016/06/17/dbdcaac8-31a6-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html) It’s a matter of public record. It’s easily proven. How about quotes from Trump family members? > [@](#): > > “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets,” Trump’s son, Donald Jr., told a real estate conference in 2008, according to an account posted on the website of eTurboNews, a trade publication. “We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia.” How does this make US Allies, as well as Republicans feel? > [@](#): > > Still, the relationship (Between Trump and Putin) is setting off alarms in pro-Western capitals — and in the U.S. foreign policy community. > > Trump’s campaign rhetoric is the “biggest dream of everyone in the Kremlin,” Tina Khidasheli, defense minister of Georgia, a U.S. ally, told The Post. “It’s scary, it’s dangerous, and it’s irresponsible.” > > Her view is shared in the United States by leading Russia experts from both political parties. > > Michael McFaul, who stepped down in 2014 as the U.S. ambassador to Russia, said Trump’s stance toward Russia “makes everyone I talk to around the world nervous — and it makes me nervous.” > > David J. Kramer, who served as deputy assistant secretary of state dealing with Russia during the George W. Bush administration, said he was “appalled” by Trump’s approach. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/151 "2016-07-26T21:59:26Z")
With the obvious lies about Trumps’ Russian financial connections coming from his spokesperson, Hope Hicks, it is even more important that Trump disclose all of his financial dealings,[including his tax returns.](http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trumps-hidden-tax-returns-take-new-significance) ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/152 "2016-07-26T22:04:12Z")
George Will said that the reason Trump hasn’t released his tax returns is because he doesn’t want us to know how much money he gets from Russia. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/153 "2016-07-26T22:15:52Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > With the obvious lies about Trumps’ Russian financial connections coming from his spokesperson, Hope Hicks, it is even more important that Trump disclose all of his financial dealings,[including his tax returns.](http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trumps-hidden-tax-returns-take-new-significance) > [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > George Will said that the reason Trump hasn’t released his tax returns is because he doesn’t want us to know how much money he gets from Russia. It’s simple: the forgeries aren’t done yet. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/154 "2016-07-26T22:31:14Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > George Will said that the reason Trump hasn’t released his tax returns is because he doesn’t want us to know how much money he gets from Russia. I think that since Trump is now espousing foreign policy that is damaging to our allies, and positive for Russia, we might JUST NEED TO KNOW THAT LITTLE DETAIL. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/155 "2016-07-26T22:59:33Z")
Our ally Georgia? Our ally Ukraine? You want to remind me of when the United States signed a treaty of alliance with Georgia or Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/156 "2016-07-26T23:01:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Our ally Georgia? Our ally Ukraine? > > You want to remind me of when the United States signed a treaty of alliance with Georgia or Ukraine? Our NATO allies. Good God, are you even aware of the issue? Trump has said that he would not protect our NATO ALLIES in the event they were attacked (unless they paid up, of course) In particular, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, who are just a little concerned about Russia moving in. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/157 "2016-07-26T23:02:01Z")
I had never followed this rabbit trail and was reluctant to do so, thinking it was just some lunatic conspiracy theory with regards to Trump. Alas, if what’s written here about [Trump’s connection to Russain money](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-putin-yes-it-s-really-a-thing) is true and can be verified by other sources, it’s a sobering revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/158 "2016-07-26T23:07:18Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I had never followed this rabbit trail and was reluctant to do so, thinking it was just some lunatic conspiracy theory with regards to Trump. > Alas, if what’s written here about [Trump’s connection to Russain money](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-putin-yes-it-s-really-a-thing) is true and can be verified by other sources, it’s a sobering revelation. It’s not impossible that this might even have an impact on the low-information voters. Those who thrill to Trump’s American nativist strain of politics, aren’t particularly pro-Russia. To them–however impressed they may be by strongman Putin’s ruthlessness–having a President who does the will of the Commies is _not_ a happy thought. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/159 "2016-07-27T01:44:38Z")
It’s interesting how the Clinton campaign has gotten a pass for pulling a Trump on the email leak. As soon as it happened they raised the Russian bogeyman in true Trump fashion. For example if the roles were reversed, Trump would immediately blame the Chinese or another of his villains. This would be portrayed as just another example of Trump speaking recklessly and damaging relations between nations. Clinton recklessly blames her villain, and NPR bites so hard on this, they chip a tooth. Yesterday the reporter giving the commentary was asked hesitantly what the evidence of Russian involvement was. She simply said “forensic evidence” and that was the substance of the claim. Wow. They are in full blown panic mode. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875/160 "2016-07-27T02:30:05Z")
It’s interesting when Trump actually says something completely idiotic like he won’t support NATO allies if they’re attacked, all the Trump apologists can say is some shit about Hilary. Are you in agreement with Trump, **WillFarnaby**? Just tell our NATO allies Latvia and Estonia to go pound sand unless they pay us some more cash? Tough luck if they’re attacked, we’ll just spit on the NATO alliance? See if Putin makes us a better business offer? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-donald-trump-a-putin-patsy/760875.md?page=9)