# Is "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" a reasonable law or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2008, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791 "2008-11-08T11:26:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/41 "2008-11-08T20:07:36Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > i love when people who have never been in the military think they have it all figured out. of course, have an opinion…no harm no foul…but understand your limits > > that was not aimed at you Astro. > > don’t ask don’t tell is actually a policy, not a law..but anywho > > that policy is not some bigoted, blah, blah sort of thing. it was set up to protect troops. what some of you fail to realize is that the military does not follow, and has never been bound by the bill of rights. so you’re putting your ideals and such in the wrong place…ask any service member what free speech is…and i promise he will respond, "what’s that?’ > > i was in the Marines, and i’ll tell you, it’s not a game or something you question, because these policies are in place to save lives. > > don’t ask don’t tell was put in place to provide equality, not segregation. it gave gay people the chance to serve their country without the fear of unwanted exposure. > > the military is not a democracy so you guys need to stop thinking of like that. people voluntarily sign the contract knowing what they are getting themselves into. > > so why the policy? 2 simple fundamental reasons: back in the day if you were exposed as being gay, it was trouble for you. now there is protection and consequences for those that act out on gay people…whether they admit it or are suspected. in the Marines i was military police and have seen the horror of what happens to gay people…so it’s not anything Marines, if they are gay, are trying to get out of the closet about. > > 2nd…war. your entire world and concept of life changes once you are in a situation where the panic and horror force the reality on you that this isn’t a game, and the rounds are real. so any sort of a romantic and emotional attachment towards someone can break down “unit cohesion” and cost lives. you see, it all makes sense, wrapped up in some pretty little package…until you really realize your life is at stake. so at that point, you need things to be as simple as possible, because your happy, philosophical brain is out to lunch…and things aren’t making sense the way you’re used to. and when all that is slammed in your face…all you want to do is come home alive. > > so all you keyboard warriors, typing your “freedom for all” spiel, really need to check your realities…because i promise you this…any serviceman put in a real situation where military standards and practices could be the difference between coming home in one piece or not…will for sure give up some of these arguments you think, by condemning and spouting off about, you’re doing a service to country. Bullshit. Military personnel are bound by SOME or MANY of the same laws as the rest of us. They are not allowed to beat the piss out of someone because they don’t condone their bedroom habits. They are NOT allowed to kill someone because they don’t like their choice of partner. As millions of gay military personnel over the years have proved, it does NOT jeopardize the “unit cohesion”, because if that were a true issue, women would not be serving with men, either. And if we’re hiring people who don’t stop it, it’s a military problem; not a gay problem. You don’t have to be a soldier to see that your excuses are just a lame cover for bad behavior and bad policy. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/42 "2008-11-08T20:09:53Z")
> [@geniios](#): > > The military would have a lot of difficulty filling its numbers without the red-neck and homophobic elements you so casually dismiss. First prove most tolerant people gravitate easily to military/totalitarian rule, then prove large numbers of them are willing to die for the rights of people they don’t agree with. It seems a more reasonable question to ask you to prove that eliminating rules against homosexual soldiers would reduce recruitment. ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/43 "2008-11-08T20:10:09Z")
> [@geniios](#): > > The only way to apply it equitably, would be to enforce the same treatment to gay men as is given to women. After all the reason to keep women out of combat is to preclude diversion and sex during combat, correct? and of course also\> No more revealing that you are heterosexual OR homosexual. i went to boot camp in san diego, so there were no females…but it for sure would have rocked to be in the field with some sexy women. 🙂 i know i probably just confirmed many things by saying that…but it would have been nice. i’ve heard some interesting stories about Air Force boot camp, since it’s coed…if they are true, i picked the wrong branch 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/44 "2008-11-08T20:15:11Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > it does apply to heterosexuals too…that’s one reason why females can serve in battle. Sorry, I meant DADT. Why does DADT not apply to everyone, regardless of orientation? [QUOTE=usmc8408] and consequences that would probably make you wish you were discharged. the marine corps is not some barbaric sort of thing. respect for a marine has no gender, race, or anything like that [/QUOTE] I’m not calling the Marines barbarians - but this policy (DADT) takes that respect you describe, and spits in its face. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/45 "2008-11-08T20:18:00Z")
DADT is just passive acceptance. They can lure the gays into the service and send them to Iraq. They will not openly state that they need or want them. But they do. If recruiting was overly successful and they could pick and choose, they would push them away. ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/46 "2008-11-08T20:19:42Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Bullshit. Military personnel are bound by SOME or MANY of the same laws as the rest of us. They are not allowed to beat the piss out of someone because they don’t condone their bedroom habits. They are NOT allowed to kill someone because they don’t like their choice of partner. As millions of gay military personnel over the years have proved, it does NOT jeopardize the “unit cohesion”, because if that were a true issue, women would not be serving with men, either. And if we’re hiring people who don’t stop it, it’s a military problem; not a gay problem. You don’t have to be a soldier to see that your excuses are just a lame cover for bad behavior and bad policy. uh…the military is not bound by the same laws as civilians…you are totally wrong. the military is bound by the UCMJ…now that’s provided you stay on base. obviously anyone is bound by local laws off base…so i guess you’re right, but your hostility clouded your point. i never said troops were allowed to beat anyone up…and yes romance/emotional attachments that filter over to the battlefield jeopardize unit cohesion…whether gay or straight. i don’t think you really responded to much of anything i actually said ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/47 "2008-11-08T20:23:02Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Oh, pregnant women most certainly effect readiness in war zones. Here’s [just one article.](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200705/ai_n19431431) Other gynecologic problems also contribute to women spending a significant more amount of time on sick-call. look at the body count in iraq, that has much more of an impact on combat readiness then some females pregnant or in sick call ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/48 "2008-11-08T20:28:07Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > DADT is just passive acceptance. They can lure the gays into the service and send them to Iraq. They will not openly state that they need or want them. But they do. If recruiting was overly successful and they could pick and choose, they would push them away. very true. the whole recruiting thing seriously bugs me. in boot camp there were guys who were sent home that never should have been there to begin with. but recruiters seeking that quota will often do whatever it takes to put you on that plane ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/49 "2008-11-08T20:31:41Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > They kept it hidden. You’ll just have to take my word for it. I’ve known many gay Marines. There use to be, and may still be a gay bar practically right outside the Marine base in San Diego. > > As an MP, I’m surprised you weren’t briefed on the local gay bars, but maybe they’ve cut down on that form of harassment. we were told all about hillside ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/50 "2008-11-08T20:39:18Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > we were told all about hillside we were told all about hillside, but i dated a girl who had a lot of gay friends that frequented that area, and they soon became my friends. it was cool being around there and refreshing to be able to drop the macho marine attitude, and just have some drinks, and hang out. so other than the constant attempts to convert me, i had many good times around there. i felt like a stud 🙂 free drinks, lots of attention…i say this in a good way, so don’t bash me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/51 "2008-11-08T20:42:12Z")
> [@geniios](#): > > You are making my point here. Rednecks get **fired up** when bullets fly. I didn’t get the impression that rednecks were any more prevalent in the Army than in civilian life. You’ll have to provide a cite otherwise or stop insinuating that the military is chock full of bigoted hillbillies. > [@usmc8408](#): > > oh how my words are being twisted. please quote me where i said DADT is to prevent romance in the military. and please quote me where i said gay troops automatically want to date other troops. > > what i did say was romance/emotional attachments compromise safety on the BATTLEFIELD. that’s one reason why females can’t serve in combat, and why gay relationships pose the same problem. i never said it was a guarantee, only a policy the military has to prevent it. BATTLEFIELD or no, the military doesn’t currently make any attempt to discourage heterosexual romance outside of fraternization. Furthermore, females can and often do serve in combat; I personally know many of them. They’re not a problem for the military and neither are gays. Frankly, **usmc** , I don’t think you’ve thought this thing through all the way. You don’t sound bigoted, but there really is no way to justify DADT except by resorting to bigotry. Do you really want to defend that? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/52 "2008-11-08T20:46:18Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > we were told all about hillside If you’re talking about San Diego, then I think you mean Hillcrest. But there were bars down around the Marine depot, too. ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/53 "2008-11-08T20:50:41Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > If you’re talking about San Diego, then I think you mean Hillcrest. But there were bars down around the Marine depot, too. yeah, that’s it…hillcrest. never knew about the ones near base though ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/54 "2008-11-08T21:16:51Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > uh…the military is not bound by the same laws as civilians…you are totally wrong. the military is bound by the UCMJ…now that’s provided you stay on base. obviously anyone is bound by local laws off base…so i guess you’re right, but your hostility clouded your point. > > i never said troops were allowed to beat anyone up…and yes romance/emotional attachments that filter over to the battlefield jeopardize unit cohesion…whether gay or straight. > > i don’t think you really responded to much of anything i actually said There’s nothing to respond to. Your take that it somehow protects the military is pure crap. The military might call their laws something different than the rest of us, but it amounts to the same thing. It has nothing to do with the fact that the group of people who are supposed to be protecting the rights of Americans are the first ones to take a steaming shit on them. Hostile? You bet I am. Shame on you for defending DADT. ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/55 "2008-11-08T21:42:06Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > There’s nothing to respond to. Your take that it somehow protects the military is pure crap. The military might call their laws something different than the rest of us, but it amounts to the same thing. It has nothing to do with the fact that the group of people who are supposed to be protecting the rights of Americans are the first ones to take a steaming shit on them. Hostile? You bet I am. Shame on you for defending DADT. dude or dudette, understand this since i’ve said it a hundred times…the policy in part is to protect troops on the battlefield…the concept of emotions crossing over. i never stated any opinion about beating up gays and how it’s ok, blah, blah. since you’re getting personal, i’ll offer up my opinion. i could give a crap less about who is gay, straight, female, male. do your job, live life, be cool and do whatever the hell it is that makes you happy. the DADT…the policy in its essence makes some sense. has it been twisted, tweaked and torn to crap…yeah, much like my words here. so i’m not going to let you drag me into some crap ass conversation accusing me of supporting something that discriminates people. i know who i am, and i know i do the right thing…so if you want to play with my words, have at it. and no military is crapping on your precious rights anymore than any other schmuck out there…so save the self righteous, take the power back spiel. be hostile, or whatever it is that floats your boat. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/56 "2008-11-08T21:52:26Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > …the policy in part is to protect troops on the battlefield…the concept of emotions crossing over. But that’s the thing: I’m not convinced that it is. Sure, it’s a _stated_ reason, but let’s not kid ourselves as to its true purpose. To me, it’s like trying to justify the usage of segregated water fountains to cut down on the spread of mono. Sure, maybe it helps some (less people using a particular water fountain), but it’s a ridiculous argument and a facade. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/57 "2008-11-08T21:54:06Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > \the policy in part is to protect troops on the battlefield…the concept of emotions crossing over.\ Could you explain this more? There are already as many gays on the battle field with DADT as there will be without DADT. What emotions are going to cross that already are? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/58 "2008-11-08T22:51:36Z")
> [@usmc8408](#): > > what i’m saying is that it’s not a “gay is bad thing.” it follows the same principle with females not being allowed in combat. romantic, emotional attachments are not safe in combat. It doesn’t even come close to following the same principles. If a female in the military swoons for some random guy, in or out of the military, she’s not booted. If a gay does, he is. Hell, he can be married and faithful to a civilian partner, and he’s still gone if it becomes known. > [@](#): > > so i never said anything about the moral issue of “don’t ask don’t tell” and gays in the military. Of course you did. You keep talking about the negative effect gays would have on “unit cohesion”, which means that you don’t think that gays can be part of the same bonds of trust as the rest of the soldiers. > [@](#): > > i’m just talking about the purpose it serves Yes, and we’re telling you that it’s both a stupid, and bigotted purpose. Not one or the other, both. Now, if you want to acknowledge that the real reason for DADT is to coddle the homophobes in the military (and outside of it, for that matter), of whom there are likely more than there are gays, you won’t get a lot of disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/59 "2008-11-09T01:28:34Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > It doesn’t even come close to following the same principles. If a female in the military swoons for some random guy, in or out of the military, she’s not booted. If a gay does, he is. Hell, he can be married and faithful to a civilian partner, and he’s still gone if it becomes known.Of course you did. You keep talking about the negative effect gays would have on “unit cohesion”, which means that you don’t think that gays can be part of the same bonds of trust as the rest of the soldiers.Yes, and we’re telling you that it’s both a stupid, and bigotted purpose. Not one or the other, both. > > Now, if you want to acknowledge that the real reason for DADT is to coddle the homophobes in the military (and outside of it, for that matter), of whom there are likely more than there are gays, you won’t get a lot of disagreement. i never said gay people negatively affect unit cohesion…i said females AND gay people, ACCORDING to the policy, WHICH I DIDN’T WRITE, contends that romantic emotions compromise safety and jeopardizes unit cohesion in the sense that acting on romantic feelings could lead one to make a foolish decision. there is nothing negative about it. and i never claimed or implied that gay people can’t be part of the same bond as straight people…so don’t put words in my mouth. take your head out of your ass and instead of your own biased interpretation…quote me where i said gay people negatively affect, and they can’t be part of the same bond as straight people. and lastly, i’m not going to acknowledge any bit of whatever you claim is truth in some sort of attempt to avoid a disagreement. i never claimed that DADT was morally right or a totally legit thing. i was just offering a point of view from someone who was in the marines, and like it or not, has to go along with what big brother decides is right. the military’s reasons and policies are not my beliefs, so once and for all, stop putting words in my mouth like i’m the damn one who wrote it. i can name a bunch of policies and standards in the marines that make no sense, defy common sense, and are borderline criminal…such as hazing. but if i told you the marine corps view of hazing, does it automatically mean it’s my belief? read my posts…i know there are alot…and i guarantee you will not find one comment by me that says anything close to me “personally believing” it’s right. now i know i said practical, and that was from the military’s point of view. nowhere did i say being gay is bad, etc. another example: during vietnam, the military discovered that if they made targets that looked like a human silhouette, troops would be more willing to engage the enemy, because the human silhouette desensitized them. practical…yeah, effective…yeah, did it get the job done…yeah, was it moral…of course not. locking marine corps recruits in a tear gas filled room, forcing us to take our masks off, and finding amusement in watching us suffer…is it practical…yeah, we learn to withstand and control the pain. is it effective…hell yeah. did it get the job done, yeah. was it moral…hell no! i know the last one was more of people taking advantage and less about policy, but i hope you see my point that what the military deems practical might not be moral. and that’s all i was getting at before people started twisting my words around like i authored the frickin’ thing, or i’m the go to man for all the jaded things the military does ---
**Author:** ![usmc8408](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/usmc8408/32/12878_2.png) [@usmc8408](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usmc8408)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791/60 "2008-11-09T01:37:25Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Could you explain this more? There are already as many gays on the battle field with DADT as there will be without DADT. What emotions are going to cross that already are? ok it’s like marine bootcamp, they separate men and women and we have no contact with females for 3 months. there are many practical reasons and such, but is it morally right? would emotions really cloud our “mission accomplishment,” probably not but you decide. that’s what i’ve been trying to do with this whole damn thread…keep my moralities out of it and just explain where the military is coming from, which is not my own personal belief. yet somehow i’ve become a bigot, gay bashing, crapper on of america’s rights, homophobe. i’m just waiting now for someone to tell me i’m still in the closet, because i’m sure someone will interpret something i said as admitting to be a man lover 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dont-ask-dont-tell-a-reasonable-law-or-not/471791.md?page=4)