# Is "Dr. Jane Doe, PhD" redundant? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 27, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123 "2013-03-27T19:08:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/21 "2013-03-28T01:27:12Z")
> [@morgensd](#): > > This may work in North America but in Europe, PhD and other advanced degree holders get more respect. Dr. Jane Doe is the appropriate form of address for these non-medical degree holders. Yes, of course. You address her as “Dr. Doe”, and you can refer to her as “Dr. Doe” or “Dr. Jane Doe”, but if you have occasion to write “PhD” (or whatever) after her name then you do _not_ also write “Dr.” before. The “PhD” tells that she’s a doctor; there’s no need to repeat that. ---
**Author:** ![morgensd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@morgensd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/morgensd)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/22 "2013-03-28T03:25:58Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Yes, of course. You address her as “Dr. Doe”, and you can refer to her as “Dr. Doe” or “Dr. Jane Doe”, but if you have occasion to write “PhD” (or whatever) after her name then you do _not_ also write “Dr.” before. The “PhD” tells that she’s a doctor; there’s no need to repeat that. Completely agree. I was just pointing out that outside the US the use of Dr. Doe for non-MDs is well-accepted. The Germans have quite a complex nomenclature. Dr rer nat, Dr-Ing, etc. Then there are the additional academic titles such as Privatdozent. Honestly, there should be a degree for studying their degrees. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/23 "2013-03-28T04:00:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I agree. Only use Dr. for medical degrees, etc. No, this is incorrect. The standard way Ph.D.'s are addressed in the US as elsewhere is as “Dr. Jane Doe,” just like a medical doctor. In a formal setting people address me as Doctor. > [@morgensd](#): > > The Germans have quite a complex nomenclature. Dr rer nat, Dr-Ing, etc. Then there are the additional academic titles such as Privatdozent. Honestly, there should be a degree for studying their degrees. And the German convention is to address you by all your titles. A male Ph.D. would be addressed as “Herr Doktor” (Mr. Doctor). I heard of a German scientist who had two Ph.D.'s who was listed on programs as “Herr Doktor Doktor Schmidt.” ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/24 "2013-03-28T04:08:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So Jane Doe should be referred to, formally, as “Ms. Jane Doe”? Well, a lot of my MA friends went on to do doctorates. Some detest doctor, others enjoy bandying it about. You would never refer to them as “PhD,” that’s a title for a business card or course syllabus. I’ve seen “professor” better tolerated with conversation with students. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![mozchron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mozchron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mozchron)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/25 "2013-03-28T13:32:07Z")
It’s redundant. I usually use “Dr. Mozchron” for most professional occasions. “Mozchron, PhD” is for more formal stuff. For everyday things, I use my first name. I have rarely used "Dr. Mozchron, PhD "in a few instances, when I want to decline something pompously (like after the 6th invitation to a spam/scam conference). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/26 "2013-03-28T13:49:19Z")
Yes, it’s redundant. The salutation is a _substitute_ for the postnomial. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/27 "2013-03-28T14:04:57Z")
> [@antonio107](#): > > Well, a lot of my MA friends went on to do doctorates. Some detest doctor, others enjoy bandying it about. You would never refer to them as “PhD,” that’s a title for a business card or course syllabus. I’ve seen “professor” better tolerated with conversation with students. YMMV. Yes, this. Dr. is always used in spoken English and most writing. I find PhD mostly gets used in email and letter signatures. Note that “Professor” takes the place of doctor and is generally considered a step up. (Professors do not generally get annoyed at being called professor, though some might get annoyed at only being called Dr.) Of course it all depends on the individual and what level of formality they want to convey. It is similar between one guy who insists you call him Bob and another who insists on Mr Smith. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/28 "2013-03-28T14:17:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I agree. Only use Dr. for medical degrees, etc. I cry foul: academics were known as doctor before physicians were. Why should we let those upstarts steal our glory? They already have better access to full-time employment, earn more money, and get more respect in society. Let us keep the last vestige of our former glory, our little rarely-used honorific. **Drake, PhD** (but not a professor by job title) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/29 "2013-03-28T14:18:22Z")
> [@flight](#): > > Note that “Professor” takes the place of doctor and is generally considered a step up. (Professors do not generally get annoyed at being called professor, though some might get annoyed at only being called Dr.) Of course it all depends on the individual and what level of formality they want to convey. It is similar between one guy who insists you call him Bob and another who insists on Mr Smith. Not all Ph.D.'s are Professors, although these days almost all Professors have doctorates. There are lots of Ph.D.'s like me who don’t hold an academic position. Here in Panama I’m often addressed by staff as “Dr. [Firstname],” which I find kind of funny. But they will also address foreigners as "Mr. [Firstname], so it’s not limited to doctorates. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/30 "2013-03-28T14:19:00Z")
I’ve seen (Europeans I believe) “Professor Dr. So and so” ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/31 "2013-03-29T01:22:57Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I’ve seen (Europeans I believe) “Professor Dr. So and so” As was said upthread, in German you often wind up with a construction like Herr Doktor Professor So-and-So. And I’ve heard anecdotes over the years that some professors can be real jerks about it. ---
**Author:** ![qinfdieb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/58f4c7/32.png) [@qinfdieb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qinfdieb)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/32 "2013-03-29T01:25:54Z")
never could get to grips with those things. ---
**Author:** ![GiantRat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@GiantRat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GiantRat)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/33 "2013-03-29T01:36:39Z")
Whether it’s redundant or not, if I need medical treatment, I’d like to know if the “Dr.” is a DDS, Prof. of Alchemy, PhD, MD, DO, etc. But I agree that seeing 4 out of those 5 is adequate for clarification. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/34 "2013-03-29T01:41:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > “The Dr.? That’s short for Drusilla; I was named after my grandmother. But I usually go by Jane, my middle name. By an amazing coincidence, there’s another doctor on staff here named Daphne Jane Doe and she uses her middle name also. So we started calling ourselves Da. Jane Doe and Dr. Jane Doe to avoid any confusion.” Wow, finding out that **Little Nemo** is, presumably, female, as is **KarlGrenze** , on the same day. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/35 "2013-03-29T03:30:15Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wow, finding out that **Little Nemo** is, presumably, female, as is **KarlGrenze** , on the same day. Well, that was something weird to find out while cruising through a thread. BTW, I may soon be Fräulein Doktor Doktor (only at work). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/36 "2013-03-29T10:48:34Z")
> [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I’ve seen (Europeans I believe) “Professor Dr. So and so” Like this Professor: Prof. Dr. phil. Dr. rer. biol. hum. Dr. phil. habil. Adly Rausch > **[Seite nicht gefunden | PH Ludwigsburg](https://www.ph-ludwigsburg.de/seite-nicht-gefunden)** In Germany (and, if I’m not mistaken, in Austria), the doctor title for all practical purposes becomes part of your familiy name (for instance in your national identity card, your passport or your driver’s licence). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/37 "2013-03-29T16:16:53Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wow, finding out that **Little Nemo** is, presumably, female… ! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/38 "2013-03-29T16:45:18Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Wow, finding out that **Little Nemo** is, presumably, female, as is **KarlGrenze** , on the same day. **Little Nemo** ’s post was in quotes and is a joke about how “Dr. Jane Doe, PhD” might not be redundant. ---
**Author:** ![jharvey963](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/54ee81/32.png) [@jharvey963](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jharvey963)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/39 "2013-03-29T17:30:39Z")
Now, I MAY be wrong in this but I thought an “MD” was different than a “PhD”. I also thought that most medical doctors have an MD, but not a PhD. I specifically remember someone saying “Joe Schmo – he’s an MD / PhD” referring to someone who has both an MD and a PhD degree. My assumption is that an MD is for any run-of-the-mill medical doctor. The added “PhD” degree better qualifies you to do medical research (perhaps?). Now, if all of this is true, and I admit I could have built a house of cards with this, then “Dr. Jane Doe, PhD” is a valid title and refers to an MD /PhD. This title represents something different than “Dr. Jane Doe” or “Jane Doe, PhD”. “Dr. Jane Doe” could be either a medical doctor, or someone who has received a PhD. “Jane Doe, PhD” is unambiguously someone who has a PhD. So am I full of it, or is this real? J. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123/40 "2013-03-29T18:15:29Z")
> [@jharvey963](#): > > Now, I MAY be wrong in this but I thought an “MD” was different than a “PhD”. I also thought that most medical doctors have an MD, but not a PhD. I specifically remember someone saying “Joe Schmo – he’s an MD / PhD” referring to someone who has both an MD and a PhD degree. My assumption is that an MD is for any run-of-the-mill medical doctor. The added “PhD” degree better qualifies you to do medical research (perhaps?). > > Now, if all of this is true, and I admit I could have built a house of cards with this, then “Dr. Jane Doe, PhD” is a valid title and refers to an MD /PhD. This title represents something different than “Dr. Jane Doe” or “Jane Doe, PhD”. > > “Dr. Jane Doe” could be either a medical doctor, or someone who has received a PhD. “Jane Doe, PhD” is unambiguously someone who has a PhD. > > So am I full of it, or is this real? > > J. You’re full of it.😉 True, most medical doctors have an MD, but no PhD. And “Dr. Jane Doe” is ambiguous as to whether she has an MD or a PhD. That still doesn’t make “Dr. Jane Doe, PhD,” a correct title. If she has both degrees, she would be referenced as “Jane Doe, MD, PhD.” Appending “Dr.” to the front gives no additional information; it does not indicate she has a medical degree in addition to a PhD. Some people list all their degrees after their name, such as John Smith, BS, MS, PhD. (The standard joke in academia is that this stands for Bull Shit, More Shit, and Piled Higher and Deeper.;)) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dr-jane-doe-phd-redundant/654123.md?page=3)