# Is dressing like a slut "asking for it"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519 "2011-05-11T14:30:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/221 "2011-05-16T22:48:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But those magical powers don’t exist, and if you’d stop reading those creepy romance novels and pay attention to the real world, you’d know that in the real world, raped women don’t get romanced out of their memories of rape. Sadly, I do find it plausible that some women in some situations could be persuaded that they hadn’t “really” been raped. If the woman had self-esteem issues, was drunk and her memories were confused, and/or if she had a strong “stranger in a dark alley” mental image of rape, a sufficiently charming date rapist might be able to convince her that he’d done nothing wrong. This wouldn’t change the fact that she’d been raped, though. It would just mean that her rapist wasn’t merely a rapist, he was a rapist who played sick head games with his victims. In some ways this might be even more psychologically damaging for the victim than a straightforward stranger rape, as she could spend years doubting her own judgment or feeling guilty about “wrongly” suspecting Mr. Charming of having raped her. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/222 "2011-05-17T03:00:33Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Sadly, I do find it plausible that some women in some situations could be persuaded that they hadn’t “really” been raped. If the woman had self-esteem issues, was drunk and her memories were confused, and/or if she had a strong “stranger in a dark alley” mental image of rape, a sufficiently charming date rapist might be able to convince her that he’d done nothing wrong. Wasn’t there a thread on this exact subject in IMHO a year or so ago? I distinctly recall someone trying to decide if she’d been raped or not. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/223 "2011-05-17T03:19:46Z")
Not this thread? [**Was this woman raped or not?**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=576887) Also found this one, [**‘Gray’ Rape**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=434494) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/224 "2011-05-17T03:41:27Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Not this thread? [**Was this woman raped or not?**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=576887) > > Also found this one, [**‘Gray’ Rape**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=434494) No. In the thread I was thinking about the OP related her experience and asked if others thought it might be rape because people she told about the incident said it seemed like it was. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/225 "2011-05-17T03:54:42Z")
Well, it does cover the same ground then–date rapists traversing the perceptual ground between “bad drunk sex” and “rapist stranger in bushes.” ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/226 "2011-05-17T10:21:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > 1. If you find yourself walking the tightrope between consent and rape, you’re an evil person. That line you think is fuzzy? Staying on the correct side of the line is easy: you just don’t go tightrope walking along it. > 2. If you need to imagine the world around you as a softcore fantasy in order to have sexual self-esteem, you’re a sad, pathetic, dangerous little person. Sad and pathetic because the real world is too harsh for you; dangerous because you project your fantasies onto other people instead of dealing with them as they really are. This post finally jogged the memory that had been nagging at me when I first read TWTTWN’s post: in an [earlier thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10541610#post10541610) on “pick up”, \*\*Lamia \*\*started digging through the “Mystery Method” book and discovered it was essentially a manifesto for date rape: > [@Spinoff thread: Mystery Method (Pick-Up Artists): Manipulation or No?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/spinoff-thread-mystery-method-pick-up-artists-manipulation-or-no/475588/181): > > Okay, now for the passage from _The Mystery Method_ that takes the creepiness prize from the passage about using a gun that I quoted before. I read this late last night and, although this may sound silly to some of you, it almost made me cry. > > Late in the book Mystery discusses the “End Game”, and has a section on “Overcoming Last Minute Resistance”. (I have no doubt that Mystery encounters a lot of last minute resistance, as the woman thinks “Wait a minute, do I really want to have sex with this guy I just met and who’s really kind of a creep?”) These are his instructions for a man who is about to have sex with a woman, but then the woman says “We should stop”. On p. 202 he says that the man shouldn’t disagree with the woman, he should “just agree with her…and then keep going.” The ellipses is from the original text, I’m not omitting anything there. > > **When a woman says “stop”, Mystery says the man should keep going.** Read the whole post to see just how creepy it is. (_“The best seduction location is one that allows you complete control, such as the bedroom of your own apartment or house.”_) I can well believe that if the pick up artist movement is founded on the attitude and behaviour encouraged here that many of it’s adherents do find themselves “walking a fuzzy line” or having to worry about “Buyer’s Remorse” (lovely terminology, by the way). Because these are the attitudes and behaviour of a date rapist. Here’s a hint: If, during sex, you find yourself wondering how you’re going to make your partner feel good about it afterwards, you’re doing something very badly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/227 "2011-05-17T10:59:44Z")
Double-post. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/228 "2011-05-17T13:09:36Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Read the whole post to see just how creepy it is. (_“The best seduction location is one that allows you complete control, such as the bedroom of your own apartment or house.”_) I can well believe that if the pick up artist movement is founded on the attitude and behaviour encouraged here that many of it’s adherents do find themselves “walking a fuzzy line” or having to worry about “Buyer’s Remorse” (lovely terminology, by the way). Because these are the attitudes and behaviour of a date rapist. > > Here’s a hint: If, during sex, you find yourself wondering how you’re going to make your partner feel good about it afterwards, you’re doing something very badly wrong. Naw, even with this extended quote you’ve taken what he’s saying out of context. The full chapter of the book begins by explaining that, prior to sleeping with a woman for the first time, the interaction is unlikely to proceed without pauses. These pauses aren’t withdrawals of consent, they’re things like “Oh, we _shouldn’t_ be doing this…” or “But, I’ve just met you…”. IOW, she wants to continue, but for whatever reason, social convention or whatever, she feels guilty. And the advice of the book is to leave her alone for a few minutes, and then try making out again. If again you’re encountering resistance, the book says to _completely stop trying_ and, say, go watch TV or something. There’s an idea behind doing this, and it is partly a mindgame, but what the book certainly **doesn’t** say is _force yourself on her_. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/229 "2011-05-17T14:14:59Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Naw, even with this extended quote you’ve taken what he’s saying out of context. > > The full chapter of the book begins by explaining that, prior to sleeping with a woman for the first time, the interaction is unlikely to proceed without pauses. These pauses aren’t withdrawals of consent, they’re things like “Oh, we _shouldn’t_ be doing this…” or “But, I’ve just met you…”. IOW, she wants to continue, but for whatever reason, social convention or whatever, she feels guilty. > > And the advice of the book is to leave her alone for a few minutes, and then try making out again. If again you’re encountering resistance, the book says to _completely stop trying_ and, say, go watch TV or something. > There’s an idea behind doing this, and it is partly a mindgame, but what the book certainly **doesn’t** say is _force yourself on her_. So he doesn’t say “Just agree with her…and then keep going” on p. 202? Because that would be forcing yourself on her. Does he say anything like, “If, ultimately, she decides she doesn’t want to have sex right now, that’s her decision and you should respect it”? Because frankly, even the use of the phrase “resistance” is creeping me out. “Resistance” by it’s nature has to be overcome. Why use such an adversarial metaphor? It paints a pretty unpleasant picture of a man who wants sex and a woman who will resist until he finds a way to break that resistance. Such as by playing mindgames to turn a “no” into a “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/230 "2011-05-17T15:08:07Z")
Exactly. If a guy is encountering enough resistance that he has to devise a strategy to manage it, that should be taken as a sign that something’s wrong. Either she doesn’t really want to have sex (which means she’s just not into you, pick someone else to sleep with) or is pretending like she doesn’t (which is a red flag that she lacks the maturity to play in the big leagues, go pick someone else to sleep with). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/231 "2011-05-17T15:19:11Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > So he doesn’t say “Just agree with her…and then keep going” on p. 202? Yep, you’re still taking it out of context. What is the line before that? And what do you suppose he means by “agree with her”? He’s saying what I said, which is: stop everything, talk for a minute, and then start making out again. Give her every chance to walk away. In fact, part of what you’re doing is saying: I’m **not** forcing myself on you. Whatever issues there may be with the PUA movement, it’s not about rape. > [@](#): > > Does he say anything like, “If, ultimately, she decides she doesn’t want to have sex right now, that’s her decision and you should respect it”? Actually, yes, I’m pretty sure it does. I don’t have the book to hand however. > [@](#): > > Because frankly, even the use of the phrase “resistance” is creeping me out. I can see why you’d feel that way. But again, let’s put it back in context. One thing I recall from the book is that it made the distinction between a woman actually saying “I don’t want to do this” and the “mock” resistance of saying “We shouldn’t be doing this…”, or similar, which may be just asking for reassurance. The difference is made quite explicit. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/232 "2011-05-17T20:49:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Here’s a question: Does anyone here even know anyone who has raped someone? And when I say “know”, I mean know them well enough to know their personality, their relationship history with women, their likes and dislikes, their outlook on life, etc. Statistically it seems likely that at least one Doper would know a rapist on this level, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone personally attest to this. An acquaintance of mine (roommate of a friend) is looking at his second conviction for a sexual offense. The first was statutory rape (she was 15, he was 27) a few years back, and the recent one is for videotaping his female roommate in the shower, starting a few months ago when she rejected his romantic overtures. Not quite the same thing as rape, but oddly enough he sort of semi-justifies the latter (in that he’ll say, I’m a horrible person because I do things this way) by saying that he felt she was leading him on by getting an apartment with him, accepting his emotional support, and whatnot, and then telling him she felt his advances were unwelcome and creepy. It’s kinda the stereotypes of the angry guy because he’s the only one not getting any and the “Nice Guy” stereotype rolled into one BPD/NPD-possibly-having package. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/233 "2011-05-17T22:42:31Z")
I said everything I had to say about the Mystery book back in 2008, but it is true that Mystery didn’t come right out and say that it’s okay for a man to have sex with a woman who is “protesting the entire time”. It was a Doper who described this as “a romantic sexual adventure”. > [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#): > > But if you have the same sex with a girl and she’s protesting the entire time, BUT you make her feel positive about the event, cuddling her after, calming her emotions/anger/etc. down, make her laugh, get her in a good state again, eat breakfast together, take her number, date for a few times, etc. In this state you there’s a good chance she’ll view the event as a romantic sexual adventure. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you have firsthand experience with this kind of thing? I’m really curious to know how you’ve come by this knowledge. > [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#): > > But yes, I have experience with this kind of thing in relation to sex, and have met many guys and girls on both ends of this spectrum. **you with the face** , I share your surprise that these posts have attracted so little attention, but it may be that many other Dopers are, like me, struggling to think of a response that is appropriate for this forum. I don’t think there can be any real debate, great or otherwise, with someone who believes that it’s okay to commit rape as long as the rapist is sure to cuddle with the victim afterward. If **TheWhoToTheWhatNow** has acted on this belief – and he certainly seems to be claiming that he has – then I hope the law will catch up with him before he rapes again. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/234 "2011-05-17T22:53:59Z")
Yes, I have to say I am baffled by this. I can buy the idea that a woman’s _initial_ resistance (verbal, _not_ physical) might be overcome by the right kind of smooth talk, and then an otherwise fulfilling sexual experience had by both parties. But a woman protesting _the entire time?_ From beginning to end? As specifically stated by **TWTTWN**? I just don’t understand how this experience could possibly be justified on anything but the most atavistic grounds. I hope he comes back to this thread and clarifies what he meant, and attempts to explain further. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/235 "2011-05-17T23:38:33Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > … I’m starting a new [thread] to ask this age old question: If a woman is dressed in what a man perceives to be “like a slut,” does that give him justification to rape her? Short answer: no. The rest is elaboration. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/236 "2011-05-18T00:57:06Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > **you with the face** , I share your surprise that these posts have attracted so little attention, but it may be that many other Dopers are, like me, struggling to think of a response that is appropriate for this forum. I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people skimmed over his post based on the first sentence, as I did. The really revolting stuff was buried in its depths. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/237 "2011-05-18T02:02:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people skimmed over his post based on the first sentence, as I did. The really revolting stuff was buried in its depths. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of people skimmed over his post based on the first sentence, as I did. The really revolting stuff was buried in its depths. > [@TheWhoToTheWhatNow](#): > > Here’s a mind-fuck along the lines of what you’re saying that won’t be controversial at all I’m sure: > > From a heartless unfeeling purely analytical perspective: Rape really comes down to how the person feels about what happened afterward. > > \ I went back and read his (TheWhoToTheWhatNow’s) screed. Now I feel sick. If anyone isn’t sure what he said, go back and reread the above post. I’ll wait. Apparently TheWhoToTheWhatNow thinks if he can convince his date that the non-consentual sex they had was all in fun and no harm done, then it wasn’t really rape in the first place.. Careful walking that tightrope, bud. Some day you’ll meet a woman you can’t “calm down”. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/238 "2011-05-18T02:50:39Z")
To be fair, I don’t blame many people for not reading his posts. Too much work for too little gain. The only reason I tune into him sometimes is because he is unintentionally funny, and every so often someone will snark something in response to him that furthers the funny. Sorry, but I have to play some of this again: > [@](#): > > This is a very well-studied and broken-down subject in pickup because PUAs are frequently walking the tight-rope separating romance and rape so these concepts are something we encounter far more frequently than the average person and the consequences for fucking them up are severe (jailtime, destroying a girl’s psyche for life, etc.). Don’t you like how he says “we”, here? It’s not like he’s saying “oh those, PUAs over there, _they_ walk this tightrope.” No, he fully admits to being a part of this lovely band of experts who walk the divide between law-abiding romance and psyche-destroying rape…and he doesn’t even have the sense not to brag about it. That’s the most fascinating thing to me. I would think that even a loser when recognize that the only kind of sex worth bragging about is the “she couldn’t keep her hands off of me and wanted to go all night” variety. Not the kind of sex associated with “she was protesting the entire time but at least she didn’t press charges against me the next day!” On what planet is this something that a normal guy would announce to the world? And then this: > [@](#): > > And to relate this to the thread itself and not just your post/point specifically, this is again why I don’t think clothes have that much of an influence on the rapist’s intentions and I don’t think it’s the girl’s fault. The emotions the girl feels after the event are primarily in the rapist’s hands. **The guy who holds a knife to a chick’s throat in an alleyway on a dark street at night and runs away is leaving her with bad emotions.** Yes, if only he would stick around to cuddle her afterwards and crack a few good-natured jokes about the run in her pantyhose. You know, so she can laugh at the silliness of the whole thing. I know for me personally, that’s all I need to cheer up after a good old fashion alleyway rape. A hug and some jokes. And maybe some pancakes. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/239 "2011-05-18T03:07:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I know for me personally, that’s all I need to cheer up after a good old fashion alleyway rape. A hug and some jokes. And maybe some pancakes. Apparently in some places, if the rapist brings a flyer from a local church service, he can get you both a 10% discount on the post-assault pancakes… ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519/240 "2011-05-18T03:59:19Z")
I know this is a couple days old, but I want to address it for the record and perhaps later readers. **Acid Lamp** , when I said, > [@spark240](#): > > And then they were, in fact, raped. > > And you speak of _their_ guilt? You suggest that they are not _actual_ victims? you replied, > [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > Don’t be absurd. I never suggested either that they were not victims nor that it was their fault, BECAUSE THEY ARE AND IT IT ISN’T. You were then being disingenuous or forgetful, because the phrases “their guilt” and “actual victims” _were yours_, from this earlier post, > [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I do not believe that an empowering , and equitable culture allows people to act in a provocative and often irresponsible manner and then simply relieve them of **their guilt** because we feel terrible that something bad happened. Doing so cheapens the real horror of **actual victims** and that is something I’m not comfortable with at all. You believe that some rape victims aren’t _really_ victims, and _should_ have guilt (not be relieved of it!) for what happened. _Your_ sympathy is reserved for the more deserving! That was the attitude of yours that poked my eye in the first place. You go on to restate it yet again, > [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > I see no reason to treat someone who shows a serious lack of judgement with the same care and consideration I’d treat someone who was brutally attacked. If you go climbing without a rope I’m still going to treat your wounds when you fall; I’m just not going to be as sympathetic as I would had you been more prudent with your actions. Climbing is a bad analogy. The mountain is not a conscious actor, and has no moral qualities. Free climbing has inherent risks in a way that no dressing or dating behavior does. The risk for women is not coming from _her_ actions. There is nothing inherently dangerous about a woman wearing a short tight dress, or whatever. There is nothing _wrong_ with her flirting. Negative outcomes can only attach to her choices (if they relate to them at all) because of what others do, actions that everyone here (except **TheWhoToTheWhatNow** ) agrees _are_ wrong. That’s where the guilt and blame come from, the wrongness of the rapist’s actions. There _was_ no wrong otherwise. You wish to ascribe some degree of fault to the woman. There’s really no coherent way to work that transaction that doesn’t involve assigning a moral value to tight dresses and flirting _in themselves_. Rape apologists do so, and some religious interpretations (but I repeat myself); I will not. > [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Apparently in some places, if the rapist brings a flyer from a local church service, he can get you both a 10% discount on the post-assault pancakes… It is all coming together. I knew there was a religious angle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-dressing-like-a-slut-asking-for-it/581519.md?page=13)