# is eco-terrorism really terrorism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 30, 2002, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711 "2002-06-30T17:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Colinito67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Colinito67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colinito67)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/81 "2002-07-04T17:27:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*OK, let’s first of all correct your false statement. The socialist movement in America brought about **none** of the changes you attribute to them. The progessive movement did. > But that’s neither here nor there. Let’s next correct your misapprehension of what I wrote. > Of course it’s hard to effect change in this country. But the very examples you point to demonstrate that you **can** effect change in this country without violence. Indeed, from a practical point of view, violence has been demonstrated to be a singularly _ineffective_ method of effecting change in this country. > The Black Panthers did not cause the changes in civil rights law in this country; the Southern Christian Leadership Conference did. > The Weathermen did not cause the US to pull out of Vietnam; various non-violent movements did. > No violent organization brought about women’s suffrage; a non-violent political campaign did. > And the ELF and ALF did not bring about what advances was have had in environmental law; such groups as Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and the like did. > Political violence in the US has long been the coin of idiots who don’t want make the effort that Martin Luther King, Jr., Ceasar Chavez, Susan B. Anthony and the like have made. To them, violence is a short-cut, so they don’t have to work as hard. They don’t want to make the sacrifices necessary to effect change; they want to force other people to involuntarily make those sacrifices. > Screw the lazy bastards. You want change, you **work** for change. > Sua \*\* About the Socialists…Would the ‘Progressive’ Movement have put those issues I mentioned on the platform if there weren’t a great deal of support for socialists and the socialist platform? The socialists were immensely successful in that way. The main parties steal all the popular ideas from 3rd parties, thus destroying the 3rd parties chance for political participation, but also making considerable change simply by doing so. Unfortunately, socialists had to work for years, facing imprisonment, outright slaughter, blacklisting… I thank each and every one of them for what they have given me and all other Americans. As for everything else below that, we agree. Actually, if you search the archives, you’ll find a post by me about non-violence being superior to violence (especially in a political movement). Oh yeah, and the use of ‘evil’ I still think is stupid. colin ---
**Author:** ![Colinito67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5daacb/32.png) [@Colinito67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colinito67)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/82 "2002-07-04T17:33:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > \*\*OK, let’s first of all correct your false statement. The socialist movement in America brought about **none** of the changes you attribute to them. The progessive movement did. > But that’s neither here nor there. Let’s next correct your misapprehension of what I wrote. > Of course it’s hard to effect change in this country. But the very examples you point to demonstrate that you **can** effect change in this country without violence. Indeed, from a practical point of view, violence has been demonstrated to be a singularly _ineffective_ method of effecting change in this country. > The Black Panthers did not cause the changes in civil rights law in this country; the Southern Christian Leadership Conference did. > The Weathermen did not cause the US to pull out of Vietnam; various non-violent movements did. > No violent organization brought about women’s suffrage; a non-violent political campaign did. > And the ELF and ALF did not bring about what advances was have had in environmental law; such groups as Greenpeace, the Sierra Club and the like did. > Political violence in the US has long been the coin of idiots who don’t want make the effort that Martin Luther King, Jr., Ceasar Chavez, Susan B. Anthony and the like have made. To them, violence is a short-cut, so they don’t have to work as hard. They don’t want to make the sacrifices necessary to effect change; they want to force other people to involuntarily make those sacrifices. > Screw the lazy bastards. You want change, you **work** for change. > Sua \*\* About the Socialists…Would the ‘Progressive’ Movement have put those issues I mentioned on the platform if there weren’t a great deal of support for socialists and the socialist platform? The socialists were immensely successful in that way. The main parties steal all the popular ideas from 3rd parties, thus destroying the 3rd parties chance for political participation, but also making considerable change simply by doing so. Unfortunately, socialists had to work for years, facing imprisonment, outright slaughter, blacklisting… I thank each and every one of them for what they have given me and all other Americans. As for everything else below that, we agree. Actually, if you search the archives, you’ll find a post by me about non-violence being superior to violence (especially in a political movement). Oh yeah, and the use of ‘evil’ I still think is stupid. colin ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/83 "2002-07-04T20:21:23Z")
## quote: _Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti_ Here’s an article, about a group of those “crazy environmentalists,” or what more open-minded people refer to as “activists,” who used hang gliders to fly into a supposedly “secure” nuclear reactor in Australia. They hung huge posters reading “Nuclear. Never safe.” Sure, they meant to inspire fear in people, the fear that nearby neclear reactors aren’t safe. Should these hang-gliding activists be considered terrorists? * * * Certainly not. They should be considered “skeet”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/84 "2002-07-05T12:24:45Z")
**PULL!!!** ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/85 "2002-07-05T20:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colinito67 \* > Ever since the 9/11 bombings, I’ve been wanting to make “We are the Terrorist” t-shirts, with a list of all the countries we’ve fucked up on the back. > \*\* I would love to see you wear that shirt in New York or D.C. you self-righteous jackass. It will look great next to you “will work for food” shirt. You know why no one cares what whiny environmentalists think? Because all do is bitch and moan without providing any solutions. You want people to treat the environment better? Come up with a substitute for fresh water or paper or the internal combustion engine or figure out someplace to put all the people living near the rainforests. But no, the only thing that groups like the ELF can do is disrupt power plants and destroy research centers where they figure out better ways to grow enough food to feed people. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![Fishhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9f8e36/32.png) [@Fishhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fishhead)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/86 "2002-07-05T22:07:34Z")
I’m one of the people that actually is concerned that I might be a target of ALF or PETA. Ironically, I am one of the people out there trying to protect the environment. I do a lot of toxicity testing and testing on animals to determine the effect of pollutants on the environment. We use invertebrates and non-living tests whenever possible, but sometimes it can be making a long jump to use conclusions from those tests to determine risk to the environment. Very often we hurt those animals, in my case fish. It is hard to tell the effect of a chemical on a fishes gonads or liver without cutting into that fish. We do have protocols in place to ensure that we do not cause more pain to the fish than is absolutely necessary. And no, I don’t work for a chemical company - I work for an agency that polices those types. If it weren’t for tests on higher animals, we’d have no idea of the effects that birthcontrol pills are having on the environment, for example (all that estrogen doesn’t just disappear when you go pee). But I live in fear of people breaking into the lab and destroying data or letting all the animals go (possibly creating an introduced species problem) or worse, setting a bomb. Our lab has received two bomb threats in four years, although it is not clear that animal rights people or eco-terrorists were involved. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711/87 "2002-07-05T22:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Ever since the 9/11 bombings, I’ve been wanting to make “We are the Terrorist” t-shirts, with a list of all the countries we’ve fucked up on the back. Very similar to the list tomndebb posted recently. Why? Do you derive some pleasure from causing pain to innocent people? What possible utility would convey to you by doing this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-eco-terrorism-really-terrorism/116711.md?page=4)