# Is "empty barrel" a racist attack? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389 "2017-10-20T21:23:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/1 "2017-10-20T21:23:13Z")
[John Kelly gave a press conference yesterday](https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/10/19/press-briefing-press-secretary-sarah-sanders-and-chief-staff-general) in which he said: > [@](#): > > And a congresswoman stood up, and in the long tradition of empty barrels making the most noise, stood up there and all of that and talked about how she was instrumental in getting the funding for that building, and how she took care of her constituents because she got the money, and she just called up President Obama, and on that phone call he gave the money – the $20 million – to build the building. And she sat down, and we were stunned. Stunned that she had done it. Even for someone that is that empty a barrel, we were stunned. [D-FL Congresswoman Frederica Wilson has responded by claiming that the term is racist](http://www.newsweek.com/john-kelly-empty-barrel-attack-was-racist-frederica-wilson-says-689243). > [@](#): > > Representative Frederica Wilson struck back at White House Chief of Staff John Kelly for calling her an “empty barrel,” saying his attack is racist. > > “That’s a racist term,” Wilson told CNN on Friday morning, one day after Kelly used the term to defend President Donald Trump against charges of insensitivity toward the families of fallen soldiers. “We looked it up in the dictionary because I had never heard of an empty barrel. And I don’t like to be dragged into something like that.” What is she talking about? How is the term “empty barrel” racist? She says she ‘looked it up in the dictionary’. Is there some official dictionary of racist terms that I’ve been unaware of all these years? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/2 "2017-10-20T21:33:25Z")
Not racist. [Pretty much a dishonest fabrication](http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/frederica-wilson-john-kelly-video/index.html). But not racist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/3 "2017-10-20T21:43:55Z")
There are some online dictionaries that note the racist origins of various terms, the notoriously unreliable [Urban Dictionary](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=empty+barrel)comes to mind. The online version of the Merriam-Webster Dictionary gives a definition of [Buffalo Solider](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buffalo%20soldier)that notes the term is only applied to African-Americans. I’d never noticed “Noisy Empty Barrel” before, so I assumed it was something like \*If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. \* 1 Corinthians 13:1 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/4 "2017-10-20T21:55:26Z")
The other thing is that Kelly was … not telling the truth … about what she actually said at the opening of the building. Video recordings of the time from the local TV station show she never made any such claim. So congrats, General Kelly. You associated with a serial liar, you become a liar yourself when you try to defend him. And why is the Chief is Staff doing this political attack on a congresswoman? Chief of Staff isn’t meant to be the President’s attack dog. Kelly just wasted his own integrity. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/5 "2017-10-20T22:00:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The other thing is that Kelly was … not telling the truth … about what she actually said at the opening of the building. Video recordings of the time from the local TV station show she never made any such claim. > > So congrats, General Kelly. You associated with a serial liar, you become a liar yourself when you try to defend him. > > And why is the Chief is Staff doing this political attack on a congresswoman? Chief of Staff isn’t meant to be the President’s attack dog. > > Kelly just wasted his own integrity. Just curious, do you think Frederica Wilson also “was … not telling the truth” / became a liar herself / wasted her own integrity when she claimed it was a racist attack? ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/6 "2017-10-20T22:02:00Z")
I had not heard the phrase before. On its surface, it doesn’t strike me as racist. I got the idea that empty containers make more noise than full ones, and I thought it was kind of a clever metaphor (coming as it did in the middle of a pack of falsehoods). CNN has an [article](http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/20/politics/empty-barrel-wilson-kelly/index.html)up about the phrase. They trace several versions of it. including one from Shakespeare: > [@CNN](#): > > The phrase – or an iteration of it – was used twice in Shakespeare’s work. In “Henry V,” a character says this: “I never heard so loud a voice issue from such an empty heart. It’s true what they say: ‘The empty vessel makes the greatest sound.’” > Somewhat more obliquely, there’s this line from “King Lear”: “Nor are those empty-hearted whose low sound reverbs no hollowness.” Again, I wasn’t familiar with the phrase before today, but I don’t see a racist subtext. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/7 "2017-10-20T22:03:02Z")
What a “great” way to “debate”. OP: “Is “empty barrel” a racist attack?” Knee-jerk responses: “Kelly is a liar!” SDMB really is deteriorating. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/8 "2017-10-20T22:03:41Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The other thing is that Kelly was … not telling the truth … about what she actually said at the opening of the building. Video recordings of the time from the local TV station show she never made any such claim. > > So congrats, General Kelly. You associated with a serial liar, you become a liar yourself when you try to defend him. > > And why is the Chief is Staff doing this political attack on a congresswoman? Chief of Staff isn’t meant to be the President’s attack dog. > > Kelly just wasted his own integrity. Maybe he was already a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/9 "2017-10-20T22:05:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just curious, do you think Frederica Wilson also “was … not telling the truth” / became a liar herself / wasted her own integrity when she claimed it was a racist attack? I don’t know enough about racial terms in the US to comment on that, so I reserve judgment on that point. However, I have seen several media stories about the video from the opening of the building which confirm she didn’t try to take credit for the funding. ETA: up to this point I’ve had a great deal of respect for General Kelly. I’ve had a clear impression of someone serving his country in a very difficult situation. But, lie down with dogs, get up with fleas, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/10 "2017-10-20T22:21:22Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > What a “great” way to “debate”. > > OP: “Is “empty barrel” a racist attack?” > Knee-jerk responses: “Kelly is a liar!” > > SDMB really is deteriorating. Actually, there were two responses addressing the question posed, then an examination of the context in which the phrase was uttered (rather than a knee-jerk response). The first knee-jerk response I saw was your attack on members of the board without either addressing the issue or providing a useful commentary on the question. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/11 "2017-10-20T22:22:52Z")
I don’t think that I’ve ever heard of Frederica Wilson before this week, but so far she seems to be a bit nutty. Also, she thinks that she is the moon barking at a dog. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/12 "2017-10-20T22:40:48Z")
I am completely on Wilson’s side on this affair. But is a sign of how bad journalism is nowadays that no-one involved in writing an article called “JOHN KELLY’S ‘EMPTY BARREL’ ATTACK WAS RACIST” thought to ask the question in the OP. They don’t have an intern who could spend a couple of hours researching whether the term “empty barrel” is actually a racist one. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/13 "2017-10-20T22:43:37Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I am completely on Wilson’s side on this affair. But is a sign of how bad journalism is nowadays that no-one involved in writing an article called “JOHN KELLY’S ‘EMPTY BARREL’ ATTACK WAS RACIST” thought to ask the question in the OP. They don’t have an intern who could spend a couple of hours researching whether the term “empty barrel” is actually a racist one. Journalism is often like the guy who posts “First!” as a reply in a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/14 "2017-10-20T23:45:42Z")
It sounds more like another term for “airhead” to me. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/15 "2017-10-20T23:50:03Z")
The fact that Kelly used “empty barrel,” not the more obvious “empty hat” or “empty suit” implies that it has some meaning to him. I can believe that it is a racist term. And if it wasn’t already, well, it probably is now. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/16 "2017-10-20T23:52:48Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The fact that Kelly used “empty barrel,” not the more obvious “empty hat” or “empty suit” implies that it has some meaning to him. I can believe that it is a racist term. > > And if it wasn’t already, well, it probably is now. Empty barrel means you’re a loudmouth with no brains. “Empty hat” and “empty suit” don’t include the loudmouth aspect of it. That’s the meaning it has to him. It’s not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/17 "2017-10-20T23:53:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It sounds more like another term for “airhead” to me. Yes, I think that he was saying that the dumbest person has the loudest mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/18 "2017-10-20T23:56:55Z")
My only guess at a racist angle is that maybe it could be implying that a black person is a monkey with a reference to a ‘barrel of monkeys’, but that seems like a pretty big stretch. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2017, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/19 "2017-10-20T23:58:50Z")
Apparently, Kelly has a history with that term. Maybe it’s just a favorite phrase. I don’t know what Frederica Wilson is on about, but what I said above holds. If a white person tends to use that kind of term for PoC and not for whites, then it is racist in use. Again, I don’t know what she’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/20 "2017-10-21T00:11:26Z")
I have heard the term “empty barrel” a handful of times, and I cannot say that from those other uses that there is the slightest bit of racism that would be apparent in those contexts. As far as the criticism that some members of Congress are prone to say crazy things to get attention, there is no doubt whatsoever that if you pick a random member of Congress, there is at least a 1:3 chance that they could be called an empty barrel for some of the things they have said. But even stopped clocks are right twice a day. And it appears that on this occasion that the congresswoman had her charge against Trump backed up by the soldier’s family. I think it is remarkably undignified of Kelly to attack a congresswoman for saying something that the family itself believes to be true: that Trump came across as an asshole in talking to a bereaved family. Let’s all step back for a second and imagine that we aren’t talking about politics figures, but your family and friends. Jane’s son was killed. Uncle Roger calls Jane and ends up being a dick in the phone call. Jane’s friend Barbara complains to everyone about it. Harry, Uncle Roger’s friend, says Barbara is an idiot. In that scenario, Roger comes off as a dick, but Harry as an even bigger dick. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389.md?page=2)