# Is "empty barrel" a racist attack? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 20, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389 "2017-10-20T21:23:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/21 "2017-10-21T00:17:06Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > If a white person tends to use that kind of term for PoC and not for whites, then it is racist in use. Again, I don’t know what she’s going on. I think she is going on a combination of (not unjustified) raw hatred of the Trump administration and being a tad into the crackpot end of the dial. Meanwhile, I’m seeing the phrase from a wide range of cultures [in Google books](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&tbm=bks&ei=L5DqWYTiLarGjwSt9J3QAw&start=0&sa=N&biw=1056&bih=518&dpr=1.82): [Russian](https://books.google.com/books?id=8AVUvEUsdCgC&pg=PA567&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRitXEtIDXAhUs1oMKHRSDBno4HhDoAQhXMAk#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). [Japanese](https://books.google.com/books?id=JgCfBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA87&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRitXEtIDXAhUs1oMKHRSDBno4HhDoAQhGMAY#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). [Irish](https://books.google.com/books?id=hRtvnKslMNIC&pg=PA36&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRitXEtIDXAhUs1oMKHRSDBno4HhDoAQhBMAU#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). “[Ghetto](https://books.google.com/books?id=mS0wAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA513&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRitXEtIDXAhUs1oMKHRSDBno4HhDoAQg7MAQ#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false)”. [Pashto](https://books.google.com/books?id=g-VLAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA134&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjEtfK0toDXAhUq44MKHS16Bzo4ChDoAQhVMAg#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). [Spanish](https://books.google.com/books?id=r2mRAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT210&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj09uvhtoDXAhVIxoMKHTzYBLEQ6AEIRjAF#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). [Bengali](https://books.google.com/books?id=tP7FX4OP9-IC&pg=PA92&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj09uvhtoDXAhVIxoMKHTzYBLEQ6AEITDAG#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). “[African American Proverbs](https://books.google.com/books?id=Lrfg37JzP78C&pg=PA256&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj09uvhtoDXAhVIxoMKHTzYBLEQ6AEIOjAD#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false)”. “[Equivalent Proverbs in Five Languages](https://books.google.com/books?id=FfN1CgAAQBAJ&pg=PA21&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj09uvhtoDXAhVIxoMKHTzYBLEQ6AEIVzAI#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false)”. [Russian again](https://books.google.com/books?id=rQ9eCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA190&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj09uvhtoDXAhVIxoMKHTzYBLEQ6AEIMzAC#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). [Jamaican](https://books.google.com/books?id=L4tz_RQkVu0C&pg=PA186&dq=%22empty+barrel%22+noise&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj09uvhtoDXAhVIxoMKHTzYBLEQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22empty%20barrel%22%20noise&f=false). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/22 "2017-10-21T00:17:12Z")
1. I’d need to see an argument that supports the idea that it’s racist before I could venture an opinion on the subject. 2. Kelly is at best recklessly cavalier with the truth, and at worst a goddamned liar. The fact that he’s not issued an apology yet puts him either as a goddamned liar or as a goddamned coward unwilling to face up to his errors. 3. “Empty barrel” is a great metaphor. 4. FOR KELLY’S FUCKING BOSS ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/23 "2017-10-21T00:27:13Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > The fact that Kelly used “empty barrel,” not the more obvious “empty hat” or “empty suit” implies that it has some meaning to him. I can believe that it is a racist term. Apparently it’s a classical reference. It appears in Shakespeare and Plato. So while it’s an insult, I personally I don’t think it’s a racist insult. And I think it should also be noted that Kelly was lying. Wilson did not say anything like what Kelly claimed. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/24 "2017-10-21T00:36:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* Even for someone that is that empty a barrel, we were stunned.\*\* Why dangling modifiers are problematic. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/25 "2017-10-21T01:21:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > …Let’s all step back for a second and imagine that we aren’t talking about politics figures, but your family and friends. > > Jane’s son was killed. Uncle Roger calls Jane and ends up being a dick in the phone call. Jane’s friend Barbara complains to everyone about it. Harry, Uncle Roger’s friend, says Barbara is an idiot. > > In that scenario, Roger comes off as a dick, but Harry as an even bigger dick. Right, but why would Barbara complain to the press about it? ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/26 "2017-10-21T01:27:02Z")
Not that I’m aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/27 "2017-10-21T01:27:43Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Right, but why would Barbara complain to the press about it? In that scenario, the press couldn’t be expected to carry that story. But if Barbara is complaining to the same social circles that they all run in, what difference does it make if the statements are made to the press or to all of one’s friends and family? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/28 "2017-10-21T01:40:48Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > My only guess at a racist angle is that maybe it could be implying that a black person is a monkey with a reference to a ‘barrel of monkeys’, but that seems like a pretty big stretch. Empty barrel –\> Cracker Barrel –\> RACIST —\> a bill becomes a law, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/29 "2017-10-21T02:35:01Z")
If someone calls it racist, I presume they have a reason for doing so. It is true that lying in headlines is a thing now, but I would hope they wouldn’t try this without a stated reason. Otherwise I would assume they just wrote it for the controversy, because controversy gets clicks. So can anyone who has already checked out these articles post some quotes about why they called it racist? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/30 "2017-10-21T04:21:26Z")
Kelly was not telling the truth it appears but “empty barrel” is not a racist term. That is just a lame appeal. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/31 "2017-10-21T04:33:32Z")
What isn’t racist might make a shorter list. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/32 "2017-10-21T04:43:41Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Empty barrel means you’re a loudmouth with no brains. “Empty hat” and “empty suit” don’t include the loudmouth aspect of it. That’s the meaning it has to him. How do you know what it means, if you don’t mind me asking? I’ve never heard the expression before. I don’t see how it’s racist but I also don’t see how it indicates that a person is a loudmouth. A barrel doesn’t have a mouth and it is full of air but so is an empty hat or an empty suit. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/33 "2017-10-21T04:49:47Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > How do you know what it means, if you don’t mind me asking? I’ve never heard the expression before. Take a look at some of the 11 instances I put in post #21. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/34 "2017-10-21T05:11:07Z")
Ah thanks. So the idea is that wind blowing over an empty barrel makes more noise than it would over a full barrel. I see. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/35 "2017-10-21T06:08:25Z")
If you’ve got to look up a term in a dictionary to try determine if it’s racist or not…then you’re really stretching. There is plenty to criticize John Kelly about. But one is opening up “fake news” claims with the racist call IMHO. Ditto that Ms Wilson needs to lose that Dolly Parton hat she’s sporting. Maybe it’s just my prejudice speaking, but I can’t take anyone seriously with a hat like that. Sheesh, let me put it this way, even [Prince](https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Mm4ms6Rw&id=325DE13EA1B7D7CAFD9894A100F80ED77659ABFC&thid=OIP.Mm4ms6Rw_YKP3XGiCSTg5wEsDG&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fradiomontagblog.files.wordpress.com%2f2016%2f04%2fprince.jpg%3fw%3d700&exph=394&expw=595&q=while+my+guitar+gently+weeps+prince&simid=608043340879170264&selectedIndex=10&ajaxhist=0)didn’t wear a hat like that ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/36 "2017-10-21T06:22:17Z")
I like her hats better than Trump’s hair. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/37 "2017-10-21T08:10:18Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > Ah thanks. So the idea is that wind blowing over an empty barrel makes more noise than it would over a full barrel. I see. It seems to me if you knock on an empty barrel, it would make more noise than a full barrel because the air would conduct sound waves better. A full barrel would have less air in it and the sound would be considerably dampened when it’s knocked on. Think of a set of drums. They make a lot of noise precisely because they’re hollow with a thin skin stretched out over one end. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/38 "2017-10-21T10:41:29Z")
The term itself isn’t racist, but the context in which it is used might still possibly leave open the possibility that it could have been used in a racist manner. It’s already clear that Kelly’s ‘recollection’ of the facts is so far wrong that it could even be construed as an intentional falsehood. Additionally, Kelly also said a few things that are being overlooked here, such as his waxing nostalgic for the good ole 1950s. That might have been a time of Norman Rockwell paintings for someone like Kelly, but in Frederica Wilson’s 1950s Florida, that was a time of sitting in the back of the bus and eating in the back colored-only rooms of restaurants. So the term itself might not have been racist, but Kelly opened himself up to the possibility that he might have been behaving like a racist. And in any case, anyone who knowingly and voluntarily works for a demonstrably racist administration opens themselves up to such charges. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/39 "2017-10-21T10:48:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > If someone calls it racist, I presume they have a reason for doing so. It is true that lying in headlines is a thing now, but I would hope they wouldn’t try this without a stated reason. Otherwise I would assume they just wrote it for the controversy, because controversy gets clicks. > > So can anyone who has already checked out these articles post some quotes about why they called it racist? The key word that keeps getting slung is “dehumanize”. Which means, I suppose, that any number of other sayings – calling someone an empty suit or a broken record or a stopped clock that’s right twice a day – would, by that reasoning, be just as racist. By contrast, though, saying she’s _not_ the sharpest knife in the drawer – well, that’d presumably be a different kettle of fish. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2017, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389/40 "2017-10-21T11:53:38Z")
[From _Henry V_, Act 4, Scene 4 -](http://shakespeare.mit.edu/henryv/henryv.4.4.html) **Boy** I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true ‘The empty vessel makes the greatest sound.’ Bardolph and Nym had ten times more valour than this roaring devil i’ the old play, that every one may pare his nails with a wooden dagger; and they are both hanged; and so would this be, if he durst steal any thing adventurously. I must stay with the lackeys, with the luggage of our camp: the French might have a good prey of us, if he knew of it; for there is none to guard it but boys. ```auto The Boy is Falstaff's page. Falstaff is dead by this point, and Boy has taken up with Bardolph, Pistol & Nym. Boy is speaking of Pistol. "Boy" is Christain Bale's character in Brannagh's Henry V, by the by. He's called Robin in that film. So - not a racist term. But since we don't know what dictionary Frederica Wilson used as a source, we can't say if she's lying or mistaken. OTOH, I don't think it's any coincidence that the Whitehouse decided to attack the black congresswoman with lies (while lecturing us about how women are sacred, no less) rather than just apologizing for misspeaking in the phone call. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-empty-barrel-a-racist-attack/799389.md?page=3)