# Is English "degrading" or just changing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143 "2011-08-02T03:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/41 "2011-08-02T15:31:20Z")
English is the language that lurks in dark alleys, knocking other languages unconcious and going through their pockets to steal vocabulary. šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/42 "2011-08-02T15:42:42Z")
Oh, bull. For we English speakers, thereā€™s no need to lurk in dark alleys as we are rather proud of our linguistic [cannibalism](http://www.mopo.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/hannibal-lecter-hopkinsopt.jpg). šŸ˜› After all, one of the things that we celebrate about Shakespeare was that he was very proficient in stealing words from other languages. ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/43 "2011-08-02T16:53:38Z")
[English is always changing.](http://www.lsadc.org/info/ling-faqs-change.cfm) I agree with the article that I cited because people do have different language experiences. When I first took journalism classes, I had to get a crash course in grammer, spelling, etc. What used to drive me crazy was the use of hyphens. Journalism in itself is like a different language. Someone with a different background might word sentences differently or use different grammer than someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/44 "2011-08-02T17:02:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > For we English speakers, ā€œFor weā€? :eek:šŸ˜› ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/45 "2011-08-02T17:05:12Z")
> [@OneMissedPost](#): > > [English is always changing.](http://www.lsadc.org/info/ling-faqs-change.cfm) I agree with the article that I cited because people do have different language experiences. When I first took journalism classes, I had to get a crash course in grammer, spelling, etc. What used to drive me crazy was the use of hyphens. Journalism in itself is like a different language. Someone with a different background might word sentences differently or use different grammer than someone else. Grammar. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![OneMissedPost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@OneMissedPost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OneMissedPost)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/46 "2011-08-02T17:08:51Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Grammar. > > šŸ˜ƒ Yeah, Iā€™m not the best at it. šŸ˜› Oh well. šŸ˜ƒ I need to use spellcheck. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/47 "2011-08-02T17:44:17Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > I say a language can experience degredation, when useful and meaningful words become vague or inexpressive. C. S. lewis wrote about one he knew of, where the word ā€œgentleman,ā€ which had a specific social meaning, got turned into a clone fo the word ā€œpolite.ā€ That adaptation ultimately added nothing to the language, but did in fact remove a useful word in British society. But you canā€™t have useful change, where useful new words get added, without losing some other words. People can only remember and use so many words. Also, I question whether it was the language or the society that changed, in that case. If nobody in a society cares any more about whether someone owns land or has a coat of arms, then ā€œgentlemanā€, in that sense, is not a particularly useful word. Itā€™s going to either get dropped from the language or used for some other purpose, because most speakers of English are not going to need to use it for its original purpose. > [@JohnT](#): > > Itā€™s all a matter of perspective, but I think most of my English teachers wouldā€™ve killed me if I constructed the above fragment Bah, prescriptivists. I prefer the definition of proper grammar a linguistics-major friend gave me: ā€œA native speaker said it, and another native speaker understood what it meant.ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/48 "2011-08-02T18:05:25Z")
18th and 19th century vernacular was probably as much of an abomination to proper language as todayā€™s is. Keep in mind that back in the day, if you could read and write then you were probably very well educated. Nowadays, most everyone can read and write at some level, but the levels can vary widely. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/49 "2011-08-02T20:51:40Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > But you canā€™t have useful change, where useful new words get added, without losing some other words. People can only remember and use so many words. > > Also, I question whether it was the language or the society that changed, in that case. If nobody in a society cares any more about whether someone owns land or has a coat of arms, then ā€œgentlemanā€, in that sense, is not a particularly useful word. Itā€™s going to either get dropped from the language or used for some other purpose, because most speakers of English are not going to need to use it for its original purpose. In response to you and RickJay- Both of your points are correct but donā€™t apply in this case. We still have an use the word gentleman; itā€™s just very limited. We not only do know more words over time (the English language has increased its vocabulary considerably, more words are used on a daily basis. And in this particular case, the language did change, not society. Even today the old word gentleman could have the same meaning in England that it did two centuries ago. Not in America, of course, which is why Iā€™m not talking about America here. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/50 "2011-08-02T21:07:51Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Oh, bull. For we English speakers, thereā€™s no need to lurk in dark alleys as we are rather proud of our linguistic [cannibalism](http://www.mopo.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/hannibal-lecter-hopkinsopt.jpg). šŸ˜› I think **Malthus** is referencing a quote on the ā€œpurityā€ of English: [QUOTE=James Nicoll] The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We donā€™t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary [/QUOTE] ([Wiki link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nicoll)) ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/51 "2011-08-02T21:17:31Z")
Just to add an interesting link, since _Strunk_ was referenced up-threadā€¦ [50 Years of Stupid Grammar Advice](http://chronicle.com/article/50-Years-of-Stupid-Grammar/25497/). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/52 "2011-08-02T21:17:52Z")
> [@Apollyon](#): > > I think **Malthus** is referencing a quote on the ā€œpurityā€ of English: > ([Wiki link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nicoll)) Yup, though Iā€™d forgotten to whom the quote ought to be attributed. Thanks! šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143/53 "2011-08-02T21:21:21Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > But you canā€™t have useful change, where useful new words get added, without losing some other words. People can only remember and use so many words. The _language_ doesnā€™t have to lose words because of an individual speakerā€™s limits. The language has long included more working words than any one of us ever uses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-english-degrading-or-just-changing/591143.md?page=2)