# Is everything we do selfish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065 "2004-10-19T17:37:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Indra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Indra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indra)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/1 "2004-10-19T17:37:24Z")
Sure we can help other to benifit society, but doesn’t that effect us at the end? I other words you just help everyelse just to feel more comfortable yourself. There is an arguement that you should do the right thing so that you can sleep at night, but in the end isn’t it **you** who is doing it for the sleep? ---
**Author:** ![Indra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Indra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indra)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/2 "2004-10-19T17:40:22Z")
Ok I’m new and did not realize the lack of the edit button. This is how it should have looked: Sure we can help others to benifit society, but doesn’t that effect us at the end? In other words, don’t you just help everyone else just to feel more comfortable yourself. There is an arguement that you should do the right thing so that you can sleep at night, but in the end isn’t it **you** who is getting the sleep? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/3 "2004-10-19T17:59:29Z")
So I’m being selfish by say, donating a percentage of my income to the local united way or giving funds at my church to send baby blankets and clothing to Africa and the Caribbean? I’m glad you pointed out what a total bastard I am. Take a step back and get a little perspective. Compare an act that makes only that person more comfortable with an act that works to make teh whole world a better place. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/4 "2004-10-19T18:24:08Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Take a step back and get a little perspective. Exactly! Perspective, people! ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/5 "2004-10-19T18:34:36Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > Take a step back and get a little perspective. Compare an act that makes only that person more comfortable with an act that works to make the whole world a better place. I think the point was that as humans we tend to seek pleasure (rewards) and avoid pain (punishments). This is the basis for behavioral psychology. The argument is that even selfish acts are in a way self-serving, as they serve to reinforce a positive self image. I’d suggest that sacrifices such as sacrificing one’s life to save another, for example, would go so strongly against the biological imperative for self survival as to be an act that is an exception to the thesis. ---
**Author:** ![indecisive1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/41988e/32.png) [@indecisive1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/indecisive1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/6 "2004-10-19T18:55:46Z")
I think I understand what you’re saying. Selfish doesn’t seem like the right word, and that’s what set Padeye off. If there was no benefit what-so-ever to an action, would we do it? I don’t think so. But what the benefit is might not make much sense. Why do we (me) continue to do destructive things to our own self? And I do help others out. Why? I do benefit, I feel good that I’m helping someone who needs some help. Maybe I’m smoothing out some of the crap society is going through, and that might make my life a bit better. That’s the benefit. Selfish sounds like all take, and no give. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/7 "2004-10-19T19:03:55Z")
But the real question is - Why does helping another ‘create a better self-image’ and Why does it help us ‘sleep better at night?’ And Why, if this is true, doesn’t everyone do this? And why, if this is true, don’t we do this more than we do? I think as social animals, we’re genetically inclined to help others - to a point. And the rules are different for our children, for our friends and others who might return favors, and for strangers. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/8 "2004-10-19T19:04:01Z")
I think selfishness is a survival trait, honed by millions of years of evolution. So in that sense, there’s nothing inherently “wrong” with selfishness – it’s what we need to do to survive. The notion of being selfless for the greater good is not without merit, but it requires a certain level of cognitive abstraction to work. As for the notion of being absolutely selfless, of doing something even when it won’t benefit ourselves at all, that’s another concept that requires a certain level of thinking to achieve. It can most certainly happen – just ask anyone who’s ever given money to a stranger without any expectations of being rewarded in return – but it’s not something that comes as naturally to us, especially in comparison to a selfish act. Or, to summarize: total selflessness is possible, but it isn’t easy. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/9 "2004-10-19T19:04:27Z")
I was going to answer this, but first…what’s in it for me? ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/10 "2004-10-19T19:06:12Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > …Or, to summarize: total selflessness is possible, but it isn’t easy. And I’ll add that **total selfishness** is possible but that ain’t easy either. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/11 "2004-10-19T19:10:24Z")
There is school of thought (the name maddeningly escapes me) that I remember from a college philosophy course which argues that, absent duress, we always do what we want to do and thetrefore no act can be truly altruistic. Even if we appear to act against our best interests, i.e., giving money away with no expectation of return, we do it because it makes us feel good, or fulfills our pact with a god, or creates good karma, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/12 "2004-10-19T19:19:28Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > …we do it because it makes us feel good, or fulfills our pact with a god, or creates good karma, etc. But isn’t that sort of like saying we eat “because it makes us feel good” or we have sex “because it makes us feel good.” Saying we do it because we like it – isn’t an answer. Isn’t the real question - WHY does it make us feel good? And does it feel equally “good” in each and every circumstance? Would you work just as hard to support a stranger you’ll never know as you would to support your child? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/13 "2004-10-19T19:23:25Z")
Before we can debate the nature of selfishness, we need a good definition. I like that of [Ambrose Bierce](http://bierce.thefreelibrary.com/The-Devils-Dictionary/19-1): > [@](#): > > **SELF•ISH** , _adj._ Devoid of consideration for the selfishness of others. Selfishness is rarely something we recognize in ourselves, but instantly see in others when they fail to pay enough attention to the things we are selfish about. 'Sall relative. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/14 "2004-10-19T20:09:39Z")
Oh yeah, but I don’t think that everything is totally selfish. Its true that a LOT of charitable donation could be said to be done with a focus on oneself. Some people who get really rich feel guilt about it, and try to aleviate it by donating it to various causes. I can think of a few selfless acts that I have done that were truely motivated by my own will, though. That is usually tied into someone that you love. But I have a skeptical view that a lot of times love is pretty selfish too. You do things for someone because they make YOU feel so good. You want to give back, because they make you feel so good, so you are sort of rewarding that person for making you feel that way. Even acts of sacraficing your life could be construed in a way that is selfish. If you are concerned about the afterlife, you could sacrafice yourself. Maybe you want honor, and while it isn’t something you can enjoy when you are dead (if you don’t believe in an afterlife), it can be viewed as a self-centered way of getting more attention than you normally would if you died naturally. As for Padeye, I can’t say that you are being selfish, but there are benefits to self-esteem that one gets from donating. I think that there are truely selfless acts and selfish acts, but people tend to classify more acts as selfless acts than they should. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/15 "2004-10-19T20:21:29Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > But isn’t that sort of like saying we eat “because it makes us feel good” or we have sex “because it makes us feel good.” Saying we do it because we like it – isn’t an answer. Isn’t the real question - WHY does it make us feel good? And does it feel equally “good” in each and every circumstance? Would you work just as hard to support a stranger you’ll never know as you would to support your child? Why not? Well it’s been a while but I think the premise is that we always behave in ways consistent with our self-interest. There is no real attempt to explain motivation any deeper than that. I’m not sure what the question about supporting a stranger versus supporting a child means. The assumption is that every act, no matter how altruistic it appears, is at a deeper level performed because _we want to do it_, and not for any higher purpose. Mind you, this was a survey course taken years ago, so I may be mis-remembering some crucial details. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/16 "2004-10-19T20:39:53Z")
> [@Merkwurdigliebe](#): > > As for Padeye, I can’t say that you are being selfish, but there are benefits to self-esteem that one gets from donating. My point was that the term isn’t an a absolute binary function. Self **ish** which to me implies a balance between what is done and the reward. Defined in such absolute terms there is no such thing as a selfless act. So Jonesey threw himself on a grenade. Yeah, killed instantly when it went off. But he saved the rest of his squad. Too bad we can’t thank him but he’s going to a better world. Actually not. His religion teaches that causing one’s own death is a mortal sin. Really? Even to save the life of another. Particularly in that case, they even have a special circle of hell. He died beliving he’ll be tormented for all eternety. Wow. That’s quite a sacrifice. Well at least he got a few seconds of satisfaction knowing he was acting for the greater good. I know. Selfish bastard. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/17 "2004-10-20T05:18:54Z")
:: Holding my breath until someone mentions Ayn Rand :: ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/18 "2004-10-20T06:30:46Z")
Unless you’re being coerced, you’re always doing what you want to do, so you could say of any action “You only did that because you wanted to.” (Saying “You only did that to make yourself feel good” is a bit of a stretch – sometimes people do things because they believe they should, but they without really thinking about them enough to feel good or bad about what they’ve done.) However, the difference between good people and bad people is that good people want to do nice things for others, and bad people don’t. Saying “You’re really helping that person just because it makes you happy to help people, so it’s selfish” is missing the point. Wanting to help people and do nice things for them isn’t a negative trait, it’s a positive one. The fact that you enjoy commiting an act of kindness certainly doesn’t make it any worse an act. ---
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/19 "2004-10-20T06:53:04Z")
> [@Padeye](#): > > My point was that the term isn’t an a absolute binary function. Self **ish** which to me implies a balance between what is done and the reward. Defined in such absolute terms there is no such thing as a selfless act. > So Jonesey threw himself on a grenade. > Yeah, killed instantly when it went off. > But he saved the rest of his squad. Too bad we can’t thank him but he’s going to a better world. > Actually not. His religion teaches that causing one’s own death is a mortal sin. > Really? Even to save the life of another. > Particularly in that case, they even have a special circle of hell. He died beliving he’ll be tormented for all eternety. > Wow. That’s quite a sacrifice. Well at least he got a few seconds of satisfaction knowing he was acting for the greater good. > I know. Selfish bastard. Well, I am certainly not a Bible scholar, but I don’t think that sacrificing yourself for others would be considered suicide. Isn’t that what JESUS did? I can’t speak for the more learned Chrisitans here, but I would certainly bet that sacrificing yourself for the sake of others or for some ideal isn’t a bad thing. Isn’t that what lots of Christians did in Rome rather than betray their religion? Honestly, who the hell would jump on a grenade, if said person knew he was going to hell? Nobody would do that. Either they believe they’ll be rewarded in the afterlife, or that there is no afterlife and they will be rewarded by having a much greater legacy than if they had died in another way. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065/20 "2004-10-20T08:21:52Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > As for the notion of being absolutely selfless, of doing something even when it won’t benefit ourselves at all, that’s another concept that requires a certain level of thinking to achieve. It can most certainly happen – just ask anyone who’s ever given money to a stranger without any expectations of being rewarded in return – but it’s not something that comes as naturally to us, especially in comparison to a selfish act… The point of the OP is precisely that such an action (handing money to a total stranger without expectations of rewards) isn’t really selfless. We do it because, for convoluted reasons (or maybe for innate ones) we feel better doing so. I understand the OP point, but we have organized our society around such concepts as the existence of free will, the responsability of individuals for their actions, and the concept that some actions are “good”, and deserve praise and other “bad/evil” and deserve scorn or posibly punishment. I honestly don’t like touching these issues with a ten foot pole. It seems to me that indeed, there’s no such thing as real selflesness. We always get something in return for our “selfless” actions. Like indeed sleeping better at night or the feeling that we are fulfilling our duties. Maybe, given our biological hardwiring, the way we have been brought up, the social pressure, etc… our mindset is such that we actually can’t help being selfness. But then, we could use the same arguments about criminal behaviors. If we reject the widely accepted concept that some actions are selfless, heroical, etc…, are the result of a free choice by the actor, and reflect positively on his personnality, then we should probably also reject the concept that some actions are selfish, evil, etc…, the result of a free choice by the actor and reflect negatively on his personnality. I’m probably unclear. What I mean is that the OP is IMO probably right. However our whole society is built on the arguably innacurate and artificial concept of the existence of “right” and “wrong”, “good” and “evil” actions, freely chosen by the responsible individual. The OP argument, ultimately, raise the issuer of the validity of these fundations of our social organization and of our perception of our fellow humans, and I’m not sure what kind of society we would live in if we rejected these assumptions. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-everything-we-do-selfish/270065.md?page=2)