# Is evil in the world a necessary thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020 "2000-04-08T01:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Asmodeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@Asmodeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asmodeus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/1 "2000-04-08T01:34:00Z")
Does it really take evil to know what good is? I believe it is. You do need something to compare good to. My guess is it takes all kinds to make a well rounded world. * * * Sex is like bridge: If you don’t have a good partner, you better have a good hand. – Charles Pierce ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/2 "2000-04-08T02:04:00Z")
Before this conversation can progress any further, we have to ask the _hard_ questions. What is “evil”? What is “good”? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/3 "2000-04-08T02:08:00Z")
“But what is evil anyway, is there reason to the rhyme? Without evil there could be no good so it must be good to be evil sometime.” - Satan, _South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut_ [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Asmodeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@Asmodeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asmodeus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/4 "2000-04-08T02:18:00Z")
Slythe… My best guess is good is the abscense of evil…and evil is the abscence of good. Go figure! * * * Sex is like bridge: If you don’t have a good partner, you better have a good hand. – Charles Pierce ---
**Author:** ![Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b5e925/32.png) [@Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zion)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/5 "2000-04-08T02:50:00Z")
[slight hijack] In the Garden of Eden, God warned that Adam and Eve could not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This means that there was a right, and a wrong, even before man knew it, or could sense it. I assume that in every religion, in every culture thourought all of history, there has been good, and there has been evil. Can we assume that an individual raised completely devoid of human contact, would also know that there was good, and evil? To answer the OP: I think humans, because of what happened in the Garden of Eden (or some other reason, if you don’t believe in the Bible), will always have a moral compass. No, evil is not nesseccary, but we’ll always know it’s there. Adam * * * Not a newbie…formerly ARG220 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/6 "2000-04-08T03:05:00Z")
Zion(now how am I gonna make fun of _that_ name? 🙂 ), I think that an individual might develop a sense of what hurts and what feels good, but without someone else to share experiences with, that’s about as far as it would go. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/7 "2000-04-08T04:08:00Z")
Yes! We will always have it too. As society evolves, it raises the bar. Five hundred years ago, as a feudal lord, if you didn’t invade your neighbor, rape his wife, kill his children, and behead his friends you were pretty much a swell guy. If you liked to torture a few peasants from time to time then hey, …it’s all in fun and a guy’s gotta have an outlet. Nowadays this kinda stuff doesn’t happen to often and evil in today’s society is smoking cigarettes, telling an off color joke in front of a coworker of the opposite sex, and littering. Ahhh, the good old days. Where have they gone? ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2000, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/8 "2000-04-08T04:23:00Z")
Microsoft is evil. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Wendolynne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/848f3c/32.png) [@Wendolynne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendolynne)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/9 "2000-04-09T03:02:00Z")
I don’t need to know evil in order to appreciate the good things in my life, thanks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![m3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@m3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/m3)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/10 "2000-04-09T03:17:00Z")
Zion, all religions throughout time? If you believe in the Bible maybe. The concept of the war between good and evil was supposedly introduced through Zoroastrianism. Some religions just see a balance of forces. Sometimes these forces favor us, sometimes not. Its not evil really, just some god or spirit getting angry. If you believe in good though, I’d have to say it would necessitate the evil. ---
**Author:** ![Wendolynne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/848f3c/32.png) [@Wendolynne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendolynne)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/11 "2000-04-09T03:27:00Z")
“good” is such a weak word compared to “evil” Try this - must there be evil for there to be bliss? must there be evil for there to be greatness? must there be hate for there to be love? must you know war to understand peace? ---
**Author:** ![SingleDad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@SingleDad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleDad)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/12 "2000-04-09T03:33:00Z")
You’re acting like we have a _choice_. We don’t. Evil exists (or does not exist depending on your definition) of its own accord. Our only degree of freedom is to craft our **response** to evil. I don’t know about y’all, but I’m against it. 😉 > [@](#): > > Five hundred years ago, as a feudal lord, if you didn’t invade your neighbor, rape his wife, kill his children, and behead his friends you were pretty much a swell guy. Actually you were more or less _expected_ to. If you didn’t, your neighbors looked at you as some kind of wussy, and they’d probably come in and invade _you_! * * * Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. ---
**Author:** ![Zion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b5e925/32.png) [@Zion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zion)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/13 "2000-04-09T04:01:00Z")
M3: > [@](#): > > Some religions just see a balance of forces. Well, what “forces” would these be? Opposite forces? Good/bad, right/wrong, ying/yang, helping force/hurting force…these things exist of their own accord (to quote SingleDad). * * * Not a newbie…formerly ARG220 ---
**Author:** ![m3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6f9a4e/32.png) [@m3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/m3)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2000, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/14 "2000-04-09T04:12:00Z")
Anthropomorphic forces. If we both want the last peice of pizza and we fight for it, would that be a struggle between opposites? No, it would just be a struggle. Look at Greek Mythology, is Hades really evil? Nah, he’s just a ruler of the underworld. Is Zeus really good? No, he’s just powerful and kind of a bastard sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2000, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/15 "2000-04-11T07:15:00Z")
**Zion** : Put me down with those who don’t believe in evil. Why must everything be binary? **SingleDad** : Is this the fallacy of the excluded midle? ## Also, can something not exist of it’s own accord? If it never existed at all? ## Just putting my 2sense in. _Tyranny_,\* like Hell\*,\* is not easily conquered\*. -Thomas Paine (fugitive slave catcher) ---
**Author:** ![Cyrano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Cyrano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyrano)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/16 "2000-04-20T07:42:00Z")
Hey there y’all. You know, I don’t think that even such an intelligent group as the Dopers really can agree on a definition of Good and Evil. But we obviously mean something don’t we? When you say that “Microsoft is Evil,” you mean something, specific or not. But to the original question, would we really be better off without evil? Absolutely. Then we would find something else to call “Evil” though. It’s really a spectrum. I think we’d agree that somethings are more good than others, or have a certain amount of “good quality” to them? If we agree on that, then there are some things that are less “good” than others. We reference these less “good” things when we figure out how “good” something is. It takes all kinds cuz there are all kinds. We just label on end of the spectrum “Evil” and the other “Good.” * * * The truth is the truth no matter who believes it. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/17 "2000-04-20T08:20:00Z")
“Everyone dies. It’s hte final and only lasting Justice. Evil exists; it is intelligence in the service of entropy. When the side of a mountain slides down to kill a village, this is not evil, for evil requires intent. Should a sentient being cause that landslide, there is evil…” -“The Last One Standing: The Tale of Boba Fett” For some reason, this thread made me think of this. Anyway, with that out of the way, I’d like to splurge some stuff… You don’t know how good something is 'til it’s gone. Those little bits of what some people call “evil” are the times when there’s an absence of good… if there were no bad times, we wouldn’t be able to appreciate the good times. Here’s a better example… take a show like, oh, The Simpsons. Great show, very humorous, I love it. But if every show on TV was The Simpsons, it’d really kinda suck. We need variety. So instead of looking at things as “Good” or “Evil”, think more in terms of shades of gray. Something may be more “Evil” than something else, yet still have a significant amount of “Good” in it. Only a couple things are completely “Evil”, like Al Gore, Otter Pops, or Must See TV. * * * -SPOOFE ---
**Author:** ![Smile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Smile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smile)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/18 "2000-04-20T10:08:00Z")
Personally, I think the most disturbing passage in the entire Bible is the opening of the Book of Job, where effectively God and Satan make a bet on whether Satan can torment Job enough to make him recant…but I digress. The point there is that evil is seen as a seperate entity that “wanders the world, doing mischief”. Similar in form is the Serpent. And BTW, I’ve always regarded the whole Tree of Knowledge routine as a rather clever metaphor for the creation of intelligence. Mind you, I had a rather peculiar RE teacher. I’ve also felt that if you take the whole thing metaphorically, Genesis actually supports evolution. Ah well. * * * Luther Blisset is Everyman. So Smile. ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/19 "2000-04-20T11:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Smile: > \*\*Personally, I think the most disturbing passage in the entire Bible is the opening of the Book of Job, where effectively God and Satan make a bet on whether Satan can torment Job enough to make him recant…but I digress. The point there is that evil is seen as a seperate entity that “wanders the world, doing mischief”. \*\* Hi Smile, \ …Gustav Davidson’s “A Dictionary of Angels – including the fallen angels”: > [@](#): > > Satan - the Hebrew meaning of the word is “adversary”. In Numbers 22:22 the angel of the Lord stands against Balaam “for an adversary” (satan). In other Old Testament Books (Job, 1 Chronicles, Psalms, Zechariah) the term likewise designates an office; and the angel investing that office is not apostate or fallen. He becomes such starting in early New Testament times and writings, when he emerges as Satan (capital S), the prince of evil and enemy of God, and is characterised by such titles as “prince of this world” (John 16:11) and “prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2). So, more disturbing than just the thought of God betting on whether Job can be tortured into cursing him, is the fact that satan is no power of evil, no adversary of God, but rather a servant of god, acting at his command, and an adversary of man at God’s bidding. Neat huh? 🆒 Cheers, Martin ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020/20 "2000-04-20T15:00:00Z")
As it turns out, I think that pizza represents most of what is good in the world, and that fennel seed represents evil. In fact, I think it tastes evile. Given that, I’m trying to get a handle on the debate so far. Do I need fennel seeds? I submit that I do not. In fact, over the past 30 or so years, I have probably spent less than a minute consuming them. Whereas, I have spent hours eating pizzas. Ah, yes, but if I had never tasted how awful fennel is, I would not be able to appreciate how good pizza is. This may be true, but I still don’t feel any particular need for them. Also, if I were to spend a couple of days eating nothing but fennel seeds, I would probably REALLY love that pizza on third day. But what if fennel seeds didn’t exist? I would just decide that black licorice was evil, and then the argument begins again. What if you eliminate all the foods that I don’t like? Would I then turn against things like pork chops, which I only like a little? Nah, I’d probly still eat them every now and then. So far, so good. I’m having a little trouble fitting the Job thing into my metaphor, though. Apparently, once God made a bet with the Devil that if they shoot enough fennel seeds at this guy, he will renounce pizza. Somehow, that just doesn’t make any sense. Or does he renounce the guy who MAKES the pizzas? Come to think of it, the original story never made sense to me. And now you say that the devil is really just a servant of God? So, it’s the delivery guy and the manager of the pizza place deciding to shoot fennel seeds at me. Nope. My metaphor just isn’t working. In that case, a question: What exactly does NEED have to do with anything? Seems to me that the universe has been filled with a great many strange and interesting things. None of them seem to be keeping their jobs on the basis of need. * * * Only a small number of people are truly awake. These people go through life in a state of constant amazement. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evil-in-the-world-a-necessary-thing/18020.md?page=2)