# Is evolution circular logic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2000, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689 "2000-07-06T01:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tripoverbiff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@tripoverbiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tripoverbiff)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2000, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/21 "2000-07-09T17:38:43Z")
Nothing to say about this subject, but one comment for BEAR NENNO. I learned the moth example in my high school biology class, too. I heard recently, though, that it’s been known for years that the scientists who did that experiment actually glued the moths to trees to make them “blend in” or “stick out” correctly, and the article I read made the arguement that this wasn’t an example of evolution at all, because there was no genetic change. When the industries cleaned up their act, the predominent moth characteristic was white again. I guess when people want to prove a point sometimes they’ll resort to fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/22 "2000-07-09T19:05:12Z")
**Father** According to Merriam-Webster online, you’re correct. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2000, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/23 "2000-07-09T21:16:29Z")
hmmm – and what better resource to turn to for an understanding of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2000, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/24 "2000-07-10T00:16:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I heard recently, though, that it’s been known for years that the scientists who did that experiment actually glued the moths to trees to make them “blend in” or “stick out” correctly, and the article I read made the arguement that this wasn’t an example of evolution at all, because there was no genetic change. When the industries cleaned up their act, the predominent moth characteristic was white again. I guess when people want to prove a point sometimes they’ll resort to fraud. Far more common is exaggeration or distortion by people with an axe to grind … did it occur to you to _investigate_ before passing this claim along? While there have been scientific frauds, the Peppered Moth research is not one of them. Some information was not included in the original reports, and reviews have turned up new information. The conclusion that the Peppered Moth is an example of evolution stands, although it may not be an example of natural selection. A genetic change _did_ occur, and no scientist contests this. Many so-called “creation scientists” do not contest this (e.g. [The Peppered Moth Shows Evolution In Action](http://mall.turnpike.net/C/cs/peppered.htm)). Some “creation scientists” have written articles about this that generally attack the research but do not present any evidence that genetic change did not occur and appear to totally misunderstand evolution. For example, from [Goodbye, Peppered Moths](http://www.tir.net/~jerbet/moth.html): “Actually, even as it stands, the textbook story demonstrates nothing more than gene frequencies back and forth, by natural selection, within one created kind.” With the exception of the “created kind” phrase, _this is a definition of evolution_. Or Henry Morris demonstrating his ignorance of evolution, thinking that only speciation is evolution, in [What About the Peppered Moth?](http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-124b.htm): “Remember that both varieties were present at the start, with the mix of genes producing lights favored over the mix of genes producing darks. As the environment changed, the dark variety had greater opportunity to pass on their genetic mix, and percentages changed. All the while, the two types were interfertile. No new genes were produced, and certainly no new species resulted. This is natural selection in action, but not evolution. Adaptation happens, but the changes are limited.” But the real scientists are clear: From [Review of “Melanism: Evolution in Action”](http://www.mathusee.com/foundation/Pmoth.html): “… for the time being we must discard Biston as a well-understood example of natural selection in action, although it is clearly a case of evolution.” From [Peppered Moth: an update](http://biocrs.biomed.brown.edu/Elephant%20stuff/Chapters/Ch%2014/Moths/Moth-Update.html): “These criticisms have led some critics of evolution to charge that the peppered moth story is “faked,” or is “known to be wrong.” Neither is true. In fact, the basic elements of the peppered moth story are quite correct. … What we do know is that the rise and fall of dark-colored moths, a phenomenon known as “industrial melanism,” remains a striking and persuasive example of natural selection in action. What we have to be cautious about is attributing 100% of the work of natural selection in this case to the camoflage of the moths and their direct visibility to birds.” ---
**Author:** ![Hohenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4af34b/32.png) [@Hohenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hohenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2000, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/25 "2000-07-10T02:46:52Z")
The definition of “fittest” seems elusive. The Neanderthals were stronger and had larger brains,(about 20%), and made tools by carefully flaking desired parts off of stone cores instead of the Cro-Magnon’s dull chopping at a core until they whittled down to the small part they wanted. But the Neanderthal didn’t survive. Other attempts of animals that seems to us suited for survival didn’t. The Dodo birds and passenger pigeon were well suited for their environment as long as the environment didn’t include humans. Humans have changed what we think of as the usual evolutionary system. If another Ice Age comes along, humans will probably not grow a fur coat, they’ll just put one on. The problem alluded to in an earlier post by what may be a Creationist further reveals that creationists have succumbed to the sin of vanity. They want to remain the top dog in God’s universe and don’t want a superior being to evolve from humans and thus render them less than the top. ---
**Author:** ![Occam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Occam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occam)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2000, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/26 "2000-07-10T04:51:49Z")
Dodo birds and passenger pigeons were not the fittest for survival because humans took care of them. Humans are part of the enviornment, so theoretically, no animal more complex than bateria is immune to extinction because of humans. So…would you all agree there is no animal fit enough to survive humans or would we have to wipe them out to prove it either way? ---
**Author:** ![tcburnett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@tcburnett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tcburnett)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2000, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/27 "2000-07-10T05:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Occam \* > \*\*Dodo birds and passenger pigeons were not the fittest for survival because humans took care of them. Humans are part of the enviornment, so theoretically, no animal more complex than bateria is immune to extinction because of humans. So…would you all agree there is no animal fit enough to survive humans or would we have to wipe them out to prove it either way? \*\* I’d say no terrestrial animal, INCLUDING humans. ---
**Author:** ![Hohenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4af34b/32.png) [@Hohenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hohenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2000, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689/28 "2000-07-10T14:40:51Z")
If we humans keep poisoning the earth, we may not survive ourselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-evolution-circular-logic/24689.md?page=1)